| KGrow |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/23/08 04:59 PM |
| 24.8.144.220 |
Reimbursement power struggle
|
Time to start scheduling summer activities. And that means it is also time for KGrow and his ex to stoke up the power struggle over reimbursements for extracurriculars.
Our divorce agreement isn't particularly specific about who pays for extracurriculars. We punted during our original negotiations because we couldn't resolve this. The agreement says extracurriculars are to be paid in proportion to income. It also says that a portion of extracurriculars are presumed to be covered by child support money.
My position: We each pay for extracurriculars that happen on our own time. Cost of shared extracurriculars should be split it in proportion to that time (typically 50-50). My child support payments provide the in-proportion-to-income piece for both types.
Her position: We each pay for extracurriculars that happen on our own time (child support payments cover the in-proportion-to-income piece here). Cost of shared extracurriculars should be split it in proportion to income.
I guess I have to resign myself to expecting lower reimbursemnt than I request and dole out the same for her. The amount of money is not huge. It is all a bunch of of absurdity. Often it gets a bit messy as we jockey to have the other to write the check and thus get an opportunity to stiff them on the reimbursement.
| gigi |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/23/08 05:17 PM |
| 68.110.66.68 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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That's frustrating to READ about. I'm sure being involved is a real pain in the neck. The only place where you still have wiggle room to mess with each other, I guess. Some day, where there's no so many years left to deal with it, maybe you could just surprise her and hand her the check she wants, brush off your hands and count the house not used in calculating and arguing about it as pure profit on the whole stupid mess. It would be almost fun to be able to write a check if the stupid arguments demanding MORE would just stop!
| mistake#2 |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/23/08 05:23 PM |
| 71.100.165.127 |
|
Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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[quote]Time to start scheduling summer activities. And that means it is also time for KGrow and his ex to stoke up the power struggle over reimbursements for extracurriculars.
Our divorce agreement isn't particularly specific about who pays for extracurriculars. We punted during our original negotiations because we couldn't resolve this. The agreement says extracurriculars are to be paid in proportion to income. It also says that a portion of extracurriculars are presumed to be covered by child support money.
My position: We each pay for extracurriculars that happen on our own time. Cost of shared extracurriculars should be split it in proportion to that time (typically 50-50). My child support payments provide the in-proportion-to-income piece for both types.
Her position: We each pay for extracurriculars that happen on our own time (child support payments cover the in-proportion-to-income piece here). Cost of shared extracurriculars should be split it in proportion to income.
I guess I have to resign myself to expecting lower reimbursemnt than I request and dole out the same for her. The amount of money is not huge. It is all a bunch of of absurdity. Often it gets a bit messy as we jockey to have the other to write the check and thus get an opportunity to stiff them on the reimbursement. [/quote]
Well it sounds like it should be proportionate to income for the ones that are shared...usually that's the same for uncovered medical expenses as well, where your percentage of responsibility is in proportion to your income. What type of percentage difference are we talking about?
My 1st ex pays $50 per year for extra curriculars (my sons athletic shoes cost more), however he pays 100% of med co-pays. 2nd ex doesn't pay for ANY extracurriculars. However he is ordered to pay 68% of ANY uncovered medical costs (and I include down to vitamins and maxi pads to his list as they are medical)...so if we had the same split in extras he'd be paying 68% to my 32%, based upon income differences that the court counts (his is actually higher but he was able to hide income, and mine is actually lower as I was imputed full-time income although I work part-time due partially to the medical needs of our son).
So why bother with the power struggle? Just pay the proportionate to income if it's not that big of a difference...
| Down |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/23/08 05:42 PM |
| 207.250.91.196 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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Sounds like a nightmare but at least you end up figuring something out. My X doesn't pay a cent for extras, I pay it all regardless of who's time it's on.
| chatter box |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/23/08 06:19 PM |
| 76.185.59.234 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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you know I think this is one thing I really wouldn't care if she paid or not. To me it's just not worth it. Of course she would like our daughter to be in a very expencive tumbling class but doesn't want to help pay for any of that.
| Jada |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/23/08 06:55 PM |
| 69.115.64.195 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
|
[quote]Time to start scheduling summer activities. And that means it is also time for KGrow and his ex to stoke up the power struggle over reimbursements for extracurriculars.
Our divorce agreement isn't particularly specific about who pays for extracurriculars. We punted during our original negotiations because we couldn't resolve this. The agreement says extracurriculars are to be paid in proportion to income. It also says that a portion of extracurriculars are presumed to be covered by child support money.
My position: We each pay for extracurriculars that happen on our own time. Cost of shared extracurriculars should be split it in proportion to that time (typically 50-50). My child support payments provide the in-proportion-to-income piece for both types.
Her position: We each pay for extracurriculars that happen on our own time (child support payments cover the in-proportion-to-income piece here). Cost of shared extracurriculars should be split it in proportion to income.
I guess I have to resign myself to expecting lower reimbursemnt than I request and dole out the same for her. The amount of money is not huge. It is all a bunch of of absurdity. Often it gets a bit messy as we jockey to have the other to write the check and thus get an opportunity to stiff them on the reimbursement. [/quote]
The only part of the court order that is vague is the amount that is considered to be part of child support.
The reimbursement part is crystal clear. It's not 50/50, it's in proportion to your incomes. Meaning the one who makes more pays more.
The problem is the vagueness of what is included in child support.
| KGrow |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/24/08 10:14 AM |
| 24.8.144.220 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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[quote]The problem is the vagueness of what is included in child support.[/quote]
Yes that's exactly right. When we were negotiating this, I said, "Why do I have to pay for this separately when it is one of the stated purposes of child support?"
Her response, "I've seen the numbers, child support is not enough to actually support the children."
And I say, "Well that's because you also need to kick in and do your part to support the children. You also have a financial responsibility to them."
Her response, "No, I stay home and you bring me money. That's how it's always worked. There's no way an intelligent, college-educated person like my self can earn real money."
This was clearly going nowhere good so we put what we had into the agreement and moved on to other issues.
| KGrow |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/24/08 10:43 AM |
| 24.8.144.220 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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[quote]It would be almost fun to be able to write a check if the stupid arguments demanding MORE would just stop![/quote]
I do take this approach when buying clothes and school supplies etc. I should sit down and figure out exactly how much money were talking about her.
Power struggles manage to perpetuate themselves. They don't really need to be about an issue of import to continue. If I were giving myself advice, I'd say, "The quickest way to end a power struggle is to surrender. Surrendering and losing are different things."
| gigi |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/24/08 12:46 PM |
| 68.110.66.68 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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My concern about surrendering when the kids are young is setting a precedent for this to continue in virtual perpetuity. It would make tons of snese to surrender when they're about to graduate high school and the child support order end date is in sight.
But my husband's ex would take it if we paid for something, and expect us to pay for more. What am I saying? she WOULD take it? She HAS taken it. We pay for this, that, the other thing. We had extra written into the child support formula to specifically go JUST to the extracurriculars, and he gave her extra early on to take care of things, outside of the child support agency so that it didn't get onto their account books even though it officially does count according to the court... and so we're abotu $2000 ahead of the actual SUPPORT, but SEVERAL thousand more in gifts to the kids, for camps, clothing, extra classes, special tournament fees, etc. And STILL she says that she needs more.
I KNOW this. When we give a dime, she thinks it means we have more to give. She thinks that next year, when that same expense arises, that we'd better pay it. She runs around telling people we're stingy and abusive and refuse to "support" the children in their activities. She even teaches the kids that the definition of "emotional abuse" is "failure to support their activities". Oh, it's a long, stupid mess.
If paying her off would shut her up and make her relax and stop interfering with parenting time, we'd be happy to do it. Put it on credit cards if we had to.
But it won't.
So, my advice is to figure out how much the difference is, and if it turns otu to be something that you'll be able to deal with every year for the next however many years till the kidsa re grown, then surrender... but if it turns out to be as many thousands as my husband is being asked to kick in (enough to effectively double the price of child support and alimony altogether!) I'd keep up the annual springtime struggle.
But there's no way to make a decision till you have the numbers in your hand. You have an advantage over us in that it seems not to be a nickle here, a dime there, the way it is with us... with a new $300 demand every week, punctuated by a $1000 arrearage in her failure to pay thier dues to thier major sports organizations for a year at a time, arriving about once every other month... for you, if you go over the whole shebang once a year, that's GREAT, becasue you can add it up and it can becoem a budget item rather than just something she expects you to toss a little pocket change at on a daily basis. (yep, she thinks $300 is pocket change, but that's also a whole 'nother story).
If it's possible to figure the numbers, do it first. And THEN decide if the struggle (and the future years worth of this number) is worth it.
| KGrow |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/24/08 01:14 PM |
| 24.8.144.220 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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Thanks Gigi. I think doing some math will help me put this into perspective. One missing variable is her income. She's been unwilling to share that with me for reasons unknown. At her insistence, we're still using numbers from 5-1/2 years ago. On a percentage basis, I believe those are reasonably accurate but there is the potential for a surprise down the road.
| gigi |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/24/08 01:46 PM |
| 68.110.66.68 |
|
Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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Why don't you subpoena her income from her employer or her last IRS stmt? Whenever they refuse to give, it's almost always something interesting that they're keeping from us! Last time we did it, we found out the ex was making $10K a year more than she testified to.
| Jada |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/24/08 08:29 PM |
| 69.115.64.195 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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[quote][quote]The problem is the vagueness of what is included in child support.[/quote]
Yes that's exactly right. When we were negotiating this, I said, "Why do I have to pay for this separately when it is one of the stated purposes of child support?"
Her response, "I've seen the numbers, child support is not enough to actually support the children."
And I say, "Well that's because you also need to kick in and do your part to support the children. You also have a financial responsibility to them."
Her response, "No, I stay home and you bring me money. That's how it's always worked. There's no way an intelligent, college-educated person like my self can earn real money."
This was clearly going nowhere good so we put what we had into the agreement and moved on to other issues. [/quote]
Because child support doesn't cover extracurricular activities. At least, ones that are repetitive like tuition for karate.
You set yourself up for one big power struggle when you refused to come to an agreement and worded it the way you did. You can't blame it entirely on your ex.
And to get yourself out of this power struggle, you may have to go to court for clarification or for the judge to decide just how much of the extracurricular activities is covered by child support. Because this isn't going to go away until you do get it clarified.
| KGrow |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/25/08 11:38 AM |
| 24.8.144.220 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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[quote]You set yourself up for one big power struggle when you refused to come to an agreement and worded it the way you did. You can't blame it entirely on your ex.[/quote]
I believe I'm taking my share of responsibility for this. I don't see where I'm blaming my ex.
I hope you intend 2nd person plural when you say, "You refused to come to an agreement."
My lawyer told me that "normal" extracurriculars were covered by child support but we could tack on more if we deemed our situation special. I realize that normal is subjective. You claim that no extracurriculars are covered by CS. My information is probably specific to Colorado. Where does your information come from?
My personal experience in negotiating a divorce agreement is that you're not going to be able to get crisp resolution on every issue. My divorce took 1-1/2 years to work out. At some point you reach a point of diminishing returns and you go with the best you can do and you hope that a bit of time post-divorce will help smooth things out, which it absolutely has for many of our points of friction.
| KGrow |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/25/08 11:49 AM |
| 24.8.144.220 |
|
Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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[quote]Why don't you subpoena her income from her employer or her last IRS stmt? Whenever they refuse to give, it's almost always something interesting that they're keeping from us! Last time we did it, we found out the ex was making $10K a year more than she testified to. [/quote]
CS is based on an imputed income for her. She's imputed above minimum wage due to college degree and other credentials. She's underemployed and I doubt she's earning more than the imputed income. If she is, it is probably not much more and is probably at least partially under the table.
| stoltz |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/25/08 12:26 PM |
| 32.97.110.142 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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I always wondered why kids and their parents bend to the will of extra-curricular activities anyway.
| ttina |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/25/08 01:47 PM |
| 205.188.117.143 |
|
Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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[quote] Her response, "No, I stay home and you bring me money. That's how it's always worked. There's no way an intelligent, college-educated person like my self can earn real money.[quote]
OMG!!!! I cannot believe she actually said that... out loud. I couldnt finish clollege (financial reasons) and I consiter myself fairly intelligent, I am a full time momma. I go out every day and work for what I need/want. I do not make massive amounts of money, but I am able to hold my own, for the most part... and without consistant child support. I would KILL for the chance to finish school, but all my credits are lost after 5 years, I would have to start over. This mentality is what is wrong with women... WTF wants to be dependant on anybody when the can do for themselves? Sorry.... this is a hot button of mine.... the whole "world owes me" mentality is selfish and immature.
Now... as far as extra curriculars.... how many are we talking? Our kids (DH & mine) can do one paid activity at a time and can do one week at camp. This is fair, and since DH and I put up the money (eventually we should get reinbursed 1/2 for his two & my ex *ha ha ha ha* doesn't even pay support). We do not use support for extra curriculars. If it is worded in your agreement to use support for curriculars I would say the two of you split the remainder 50/50. Say camp is 150.00... support pays 50, you pay 50, and she pays 50. Would this work?
| ttina |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/25/08 02:04 PM |
| 205.188.117.143 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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stoltz, just b/c you prefer your kids to sit all summer with their thumbs up their rear ends doesn't mean the rest of us think that is a productive way to encourage learning/social development in children. As with every thing else in life balance is the key.
| stoltz |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/25/08 02:16 PM |
| 32.97.110.142 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, only that it seems to control the parent's and children's in many instances rather than being a positive factor for everyone - the children included.
| KGrow |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/25/08 03:51 PM |
| 24.8.144.220 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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[quote][quote]Her response, "No, I stay home and you bring me money. That's how it's always worked. There's no way an intelligent, college-educated person like my self can earn real money.[quote]
OMG!!!! I cannot believe she actually said that... out loud.[/quote]
To be fair, she said something more along the lines of, "I'm making my contribution by staying at home and taking care of the kids." and, "I won't be able to find a decent job. Who would hire me?"
She also said, "I'm going to be alone forever." A month later she'd hooked up with the dude who she's been with since.
This was back when things were very raw for us. It's much better now.
I can have a bit more compassion about the whole entitlement thing when it is so apparent it is rooted in deep self-esteem issues.
| ttina |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/25/08 04:41 PM |
| 205.188.117.143 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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this is where balance is the key. Anything positive for the kids should be positive for the parents.
| ttina |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/25/08 04:49 PM |
| 205.188.117.143 |
|
Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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And now may be a good time to revisit the whole issue... now that people's emotions are not as sensitive. I will tell you that there are jobs out there for those who look... it may not be exactly what you want, but there are jobs. Staying home is great... I did it unil my son was almost 2. But there is more to parental responsibility than emotional/custodial support.
| Jada |
| (Platinum) |
| 04/25/08 05:19 PM |
| 69.115.64.195 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
|
[quote][quote]You set yourself up for one big power struggle when you refused to come to an agreement and worded it the way you did. You can't blame it entirely on your ex.[/quote]
I believe I'm taking my share of responsibility for this. I don't see where I'm blaming my ex.
I hope you intend 2nd person plural when you say, "You refused to come to an agreement."
My lawyer told me that "normal" extracurriculars were covered by child support but we could tack on more if we deemed our situation special. I realize that normal is subjective. You claim that no extracurriculars are covered by CS. My information is probably specific to Colorado. Where does your information come from?
My personal experience in negotiating a divorce agreement is that you're not going to be able to get crisp resolution on every issue. My divorce took 1-1/2 years to work out. At some point you reach a point of diminishing returns and you go with the best you can do and you hope that a bit of time post-divorce will help smooth things out, which it absolutely has for many of our points of friction. [/quote]
New Jersey. And ordinary extracurricular activities are included in child support. Such as the soccor registration for the kids in the fall.
Extraordinary extracurricular activities, such as ballet and karate (which are recurring with a set tuition, usually more than the soccor which is $20 a child).
However; extracurricular activities don't have to be split if it isn't addressed in the court order. In any state.
It is addressed, albeit vaguely, in your court order.
You would mean both you and your ex.
| Rambo |
| (New) |
| 06/16/08 09:39 PM |
| 68.197.142.255 |
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Re: Reimbursement power struggle
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Lets be reasonable here..the child support cover extras as part of miscellaneous activities and the parent getting the $ has to pay. But both parties have to work it out to see if the activity fee is crossing the limits..if so let them split based on the imcome. I know its easy to say but difficult to implement as either party doesnt want to give up!