What will I lose
Platinum
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 739
Loc: PA
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In the property forum i have my detailed financial picture but the summary is I only have approx 200 to pay her alimony today. But in a few months, will have 220 more as my car is paid off, then in 5 years i have 526 more i can use to pay her.
So, neither of us have atty yet (i've seen 2 of them though) but i was thinking all my expenses are 'public' knowledge, it's not like they are a secret, so why not just come clean and tell her this is what i can afford now/later and can we agree to that? She already said she needs atty and that's fine, (she's on mental soc sec disability and doesnt trust herself) but i thought if i can get the numbers in her head she may rebuff an atty telling her to go for the jugular and not worry about what i can pay, just that she legally can go for and probably win a settlement i cant afford (1100+ per month)
i guess i'm too logical of a person but i cannot see the downside to fessing up to what is already known and provable on paper? She has no clue about finances by the way. I took care of everything for her until now.
so how can she use this info against me for evil purposes?
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call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.
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KGrow
Platinum
Reged: 01/27/06
Posts: 3153
Loc: Colorado
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One of the early steps in settling a divorce is financial disclosure. You certainly want to disclosure your numbers to your attorney and you're required to make a certain amount of it visible to hers.
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What will I lose
Platinum
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 739
Loc: PA
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[quote]One of the early steps in settling a divorce is financial disclosure. You certainly want to disclosure your numbers to your attorney and you're required to make a certain amount of it visible to hers. [/quote]
well i'll show everyone everything. It will clearly show i have little money to give her but from all i hear it doesnt matter what i have to give, it's just what she is entitled to.
thats why i wanted to start working at home on her and telling her this is what you can have with no fighting, no atty fees except him looking over the documents. I am not sure she is even aware that atty must do what she wants, i think she will be swayed by family and atty etc and even if she wants to do nice by me (unlikely of course), she wont be able to
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call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.
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gigi
Platinum
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5042
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In YOUR situation, with what YOU have told us, that sounds like a smart idea. You are better off if she gets a full picture of the whole thing, so that she'll understand what the two of you have as a family to split up, what is available and what is committed (car payments, etc). If she gets a better understanding of this, SO LONG AS NONE OF THE EXPENSES ARE EXCESSIVE, like payments for a ferrari or something (JUST an example, I know you have a car payment that's very low)... you should be golden on this one.
Now, if you had stuff that you were worried she'd find out about and wanted to hide, disclosing everythign BUT that would be very dangerous, because ... well, people usually can't hide stuff without being obvious about the subtrefuge, but also, once the hidden stuff was disclosed, everyone would wonder what ELSE you were keeping back from them... and the chance that you were holding back more stuff would turn this into flat-out war...
But in most situations, people just don't have that much stuff... it's a not very good comment on the way we live and save and plan, in general, that most people don't have significant stuff to worry about, but that's something for everyone to worry about when they retire, I guess. For most people, who do NOT have much STUFF, and nothing which has been hidden from their spouses at all ... it's not a problem to just lay it all out on the line and figure out how they're going to manage creating two households where there used to be one.
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jbar
Platinum
Reged: 12/16/06
Posts: 1007
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I can see that you are still frozen with fear and indecision, even after I have explained to you that you will go mad if you allow the system to turn you into a slave to her for the rest of your life. Of what value is your job, trying to get ahead in life or even providing for your child, if you will be forced to work primarily just to take care of your ex until one of you dies?
You know, the way that our brains are constructed, every time we engage in self-destructive behavour, or allow someone else to use us as a slave, it becomes that much more automatic to behave the same way again. This also applies if you are the one using the other person. Don't let them EVEN GET STARTED assuming that they can keep stealing more and more of the product of your work and talent in this world; it belongs to you. If they insist on stealing it for ANY purpose, the only proper reply is to work until you have satisfied your own needs, then any needs of others which you have VOLUNTARILY accepted responsibility for*, then when they bring up any further demands, which they claim to have a right to make of you, to sit down and tell them where to go!
* The "system" can't have it both ways and insist that you somehow assumed a lifetime responsibility for your spouse's maintenance, because of "vows" or any other reason, when the very jackasses attempting to make such an assertion are essentially the selfsame individuals who created "no-fault" divorce law--providing that your marriage (and these same "vows") can be terminated if "the marriage can no longer be supported". What greater proof could there be that a marriage can no longer be supported than that one party is no longer able to behave--due to disability--as a normal marital partner?
Edited by jbar (02/29/08 01:58 AM)
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What will I lose
Platinum
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 739
Loc: PA
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[quote]In YOUR situation, with what YOU have told us, that sounds like a smart idea. [/quote]
her trusted shrink told her last night to settle all the property stuff and avoid court at all costs..i have a feeling he's being taken to court himself and knows 1st handed how bad this would turn out..since she trusts him and calls him a friend, i think his words will be useful
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call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.
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What will I lose
Platinum
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 739
Loc: PA
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well it's finally started. Her atty came to the house today and talked to her. I called her to get an update. He did say regarding the house if she thinks there is equity, get an appraisal and ask for it. But she said she didnt think there really was any. So i'm not sure if she will fork out money for one or not. She told me the other night she feels the house is the only leverage she has against me (signing it over for a refi).
So her atty pretty much said we should work out as much as we could. He also said to get pension data but he wasnt clear telling her what he would do with it. I told her i'm pretty sure he meant that 'she' will have to hire a stat. guy to analyze it. Inferring that any number i come up with i'm sure she wouldnt trust.
of course then she said the pension is moot since she wont be living that long. I guess trying to make me feel bad about her condition.
and she wants all this over asap and since she will be moving far away, its doubly impt to get as much done as possible here and now, she doesnt wanna do anything once she moves. Said she cannot live here thru summer, it's just too hard.
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call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.
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gigi
Platinum
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5042
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Good. Look your house up on Zillow. If it's got the value as higher than your mortgage, expect her to maybe consider an appraisal, but if the value is below your mortgage costs, consider showing it to her. That might satisfy her on one fo those isseus.
On the pension, they just need a court ordered QDRO... it's kind of automatic unless the numbers are so low that it's not worth the time it takes to draft. I don't think that's going to be your case though. You've probably got enough to make it worth it. She gets a half of whatever portion of the pension was vested between the date you married and the date you served her with the divorce papers... FOR THAT REASON... whatever you choose to do on alimony, make certain it ends as of the date of your expected retirement. Don't dare use language like "permananent"... I've actually heard of peopel having a hard time retiring because their ex got half the retirement pay and STILL was expecting to get the alimony... so be very careful about promising that.
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What will I lose
Platinum
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 739
Loc: PA
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zillow sucks...just lists assessed value and also says i have 2600 sq feet..it's not that big! but pays me to keep it because after refi id pay under 1K which is cheaper than rent.
Who pays for the stat. guy to figure out my pension, i assume she would so she can trust the numbers right?
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call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.
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gigi
Platinum
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5042
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Go on zillow, claim your house and correct the facts. If you've got so much equity that a refi will be easy for you to pay off, understand that SHE (or her lawyer) will want HALF of that equity, so the loan to pay HER off will not be quite so easy for you. So you want to make certain Zillow is as accurate as it can be. If the Zillow amount is closer to the actual equity in the house, maybe she won't make you sell it or pay her for half of it.
On the pension, the QDRO does not require actual calculations, just instructions on how to calculate... and it's the instructions that are pricey. The calculations are done by teh pension administrator. Basically, you get a court order that tells your pension administrator, "this person now owns a portion of that pension. The portion is half of whatever accrued between the dates of 1-1-01 (marriage date) and 12-12-08 (divorce date), plus any investment interest on those amounts since that time. Please take that and split it up accordingly." Your pension administrator will then do the split, which should not incur any charges. That portion of it now becomes HER pension, and though the rules on it are tied to YOUR employment and whatever rules you have, SHE becomes the owner of it and can direct anyone she wants to become the beneficiary if she dies (like her sister or nephews or whoever). Generally, though, most people do not take a payout of their pension which would allow for death benefits, so if she dies early it all goes away. If she truly believes that she's going to die before she would be entitled to any benefits, it woudl be the right thing to do to simply not split the pension. If you truly believe she's going to die early, it would be the right thing to do, to figure out how much of a pension she WOULD receive, and offer to pay her that as spousal maintinance during retirement rather than split your pension up, which maintenance would be terminated upon her death, and that would save you from losing her portion of your pension. PLUS, NEITHER of you would ahve to pay for a QDRO.
The danger of this is in acting like your own pension fund for her, so if your pension goes bankrupt or something, you might still end up owing her... on the up side, if your pension and retirement benefits skyrocketed and you got bonuses & stuff, your alimony amount would ALSO be fixed and you'd bekeeping the whole thing rathr than having given up half.
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What will I lose
Platinum
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 739
Loc: PA
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i dont know if it's the same thing but 2 months ago i called my pension people and said figure out numbers as of date of marriage and 'today'. and i got them within 2 days.
I forget what the numbers were all called but i distinctly remember something like this
date of marriage..
109.00
26,000
today
970
226,000
the 26 and 226K were the present values and i guess the other numbers were monthly payments. But i dont know if the PV assumes i work my full 35 year or not or is the actual as of today. i guess thats why actuary needs paid. Because if i quit 'today' i wont wanna be on the hook for any full amount.
Also we talked about pension a bit yesterday, i pulled out the letter from the place. I already knew she has to follow 'my rules' (she doesnt get any money until i retire) but then i read further into the thing and she does NOT get to choose a beneficiary. This is good news for me but she said 'i bet you are happy now' when i told her this. I said no i wish i could get out money and pay you a lump so this was all over but i cannot change the LAW!
So she thought she would reach retirement age before me and get this money but i told her no she wont get a dime until i retire and also she cannot choose beneficiary. Obviously it was a bad day yesterday.
house wasnt discussed at all, i figure better not bring that up. Oh wait, she did say she knows she has to pay 400 for an appraisal. I told her why not just come up with a number you want and save yourself the money?
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call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.
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What will I lose
Platinum
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 739
Loc: PA
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[quote]
The danger of this is in acting like your own pension fund for her, so if your pension goes bankrupt or something, you might still end up owing her... on the up side, if your pension and retirement benefits skyrocketed and you got bonuses & stuff, your alimony amount would ALSO be fixed and you'd bekeeping the whole thing rathr than having given up half. [/quote]
im quoting this separately because i'm lost. First off we have the biggest state pension fund in the country and it will never not be here so i'm confident of that :)
but my main question is about your math. i never get bonuses etc and so my pension amount really pretty much is 'fixed' now. Also , assuming i word my contract right, i thought alimony was fixed also. Anywho, the question is: what is the point of calculating a pension value today if that isnt what is going to take place in the future? Why not wait until i retire to do the math if it matters so much?
Just assume the math says she should get 500 a month because that's the increase from date of marriage to date of D. Why would that amount EVER change? After D she isnt entitled to any increases i thought? Or are you saying my pension is based on me working the full 35 years?
also even if i do quit this job 'today', id still get whatever pension i'm due and wouldnt i owe her what is in our decree? I'm totally lost how anything beyond 'today' affects my alimony or pension but esp. my pension.
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call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.
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allthumbs
Platinum
Reged: 07/12/07
Posts: 455
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In the past, some pensions were set up based on a person working full time and so many years (let's say 30) Then, the were allowed to retire and collect a set, pre-determined amount till death. Sometimes, spouses could continue to receive the pension of a deceased pensioner. There were COLA's built into these sometimes, similar to SS. However, for many years now, many "pension" plans have significantly changed. You would be well advised to get an up to date, detailed version of your plan and understand it fully. Do NOT rely on what someone told you. Sometimes, back room deals are cut with union leadership and employers that never reach the membership. These are entered into the new contracts with very little notice. I would not negotiate a divorce settlement until I fully understood my pension plan and exactly how it works.
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