What will I lose
Platinum
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 760
Loc: PA
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[quote]File
It puts a date stamp on asset split. You can probably kiss the 15 grand goodbye. What is to stop her from taking more ? File and document everything from then on and hopefully you'll be able to retain/get credit for 1/2 of whatever else disappears. [/quote]
well first off there is no more to take. She cleaned house and i took the little left and paid down visa. If she takes from my paycheck that means things around the house dont get paid. She is NOT that kind of person. Honestly. It wouldnt benefit her in the least to have household bills stop being paid.
this is the 1st time anyone has ever told me about date of filing being date of asset split. Are you 100% positive about that and is it for PA for sure?
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call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.
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gigi
Platinum
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5141
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EEEK. We're NOT tellin gyou to file AND force her to move out. WE're TRYING to tell you that these are separate things. Filing ONLY is a piece of paper that fixes the time of what the assets are worth and starts the clock running. She does NOT have to move out OR demand temporary support or ANYTHING, just because you filed for divorce. LOTS of people stay together for economical reasons before the divorce is final... waiting for the house to sell, waiting for one to get a job or antoehr house, figuring out how to deal with it with the kids so that they're not too disrupted.
When you are being amicable, this is possible. You are NOW being amicable. Don't wait till it's hateful before you file. Keep it amicable. Just get the clock started and start making plans, separating your assets etc.
OK... one more example. My husband thought that the negotiations he & his ex had made through their marriage about what would happen in a divorce were nearly finished, and when he walked out of the house there was only a little more talk to finalize what they were going to do, after which they'd put it on paper, get whatever court forms were required, wait the appropriate amount of time and file & finalize it all.
What he did NOT realize was that the negotiations they made would all be stretched out longer, given the chance to change AFTER the filing. With HIS ex, she saw their pre-filing negotiations as a bottom line, the worst she could do, and she refused to sign off on ANY of the written documentation of waht they'd talked about unless he bumped it up higher. By waiting and trying to negotiate without a laywer, he shot himself in the foot... getting her into the frame of mind that she was going to get this, get that, get the other thing, (all of which was more than the law woul dhave required), AND that this was the WORST she could do... that all she had to do was hire a lawyer to contest & fight & find dirty tactics and she'd get even more.
She was wrong, but it ended up really costing them a LOT.
The point of the waiting period is to conduct the negotiations, to give the other party a chance to disagree with what they'd been offered or what has been started to be done. Most people who think they've got it all worked our are surprised to find that the ex is forcing a whole new series of negotiations during the waiting period... I mean, 2 years is a LONG time to wait! It's crazy to think you'll get to where you're all happy with this settlement and then settle into it and hold your breath for 2 years and no one will want to change thier mind in that 2 years. Heck, you've seen people here... they get their divorces FINAL and still want to go back & change things.
You're asking about what to do... should I file, should I kick her out, should I pay her support, should I talk to her mother... in all pieces. And we're answering as good as we can, the pieces of the puzzle that you're asking about. BUT you're putting it together into your head in a way that it doesn't all necessarily FIT together.
OFTEN, moving out and filing are associated with each other, but no one ever coordinates their move date to exacctly coincide with thier filing date... frankly, doing both on the same day would be ridiculous, almost too much to handle on one day.
So CLEARLY there's always a day or two of lag time between one & the otehr... and since there's a day or two, why do you think it doesn't OFTEN happen that there is MORE than a day or two.
I suggest that people who have filed for divorce live separately as soon as they can so that they don't end up hating each other and at war, but this does not mean that if there is no way to separate, that they should not FILE! If they dont' file, the clock doesnt' start running, the person who is the procrastinator does not have incentive to get moving, the person who has a tendency to pull dirty tricks gets more time and comfort within which to plan MORE dirty tricks. If you don't file, the timelines just get delayed.
The date of filing the initial complaint in divorce has nothign to do with the negotiations. You can start them before the filing, you can continue them after filing, you can finalize things any time up until the final divore decree is signed (that's 2 years after filing, for you)... AND if you THINK youv'e done the negotiations, there is nothing preventing HER from re-opening it at any time until the divorce is FINAL... so thinking that you've got it all done before filing is a real mistake... if she doesn't wnat it done, it's not done, simple as that... but if you get the 2 years wiating period started... and continue the negotiations at that point... then there is the POSSIBILITY that in 2 years you CAN get her to make an agreement and get the jduge to sign it THEN before she changes her mind. You can't get that thing to happen, the judge to sign it so she can't change her mind... UNTIL the two year period runs... so getting the time period started is a good idea.
NOW, on the splitting of things, being nice to your mother-in-law, creating separate accounts and signing over property to each other... these things can happen at any time. BUT if you ... oh, I don't know, get her to sign the house over to her today and file 2 months from now... and in that 2 months, the house value raises by a hundred thousand... know what happens? She has a GOOD chance of getting the judge to order tha tyou have to pay her half that hundred thousand! Why? Because you were still married to her and had not filed for divore yet, and the date of the value of the house is the date of filing.
If you hold off on filing until you get everythign settled, and you re-finance, sign her car over to her, have her sign your house & cars over to you... and take your own sweet time in getting enough savings to hire a lawyer and file... and in the meantime the value of the stfuf that you got from her has raised... you're going to owe her half.
And on being nice to her or her mother... you have to find a way to negotiate and remain in a negotiation position EVERY DAY between now and when it's final... and that means two whole years after the day you file. It's a LONG time to maintain composure... a LONGER time to hold off on starting your new life (if that's what you want). And believe me... 1 year, 11 months and 20 days from now you're going to be wondering why you didn't file 10 darned days earlier! If you wait for another 5 months before filing... you're going to be sitting there 1 year, 11 months and 20 days from now KICKING yourself because you've got another 5 months & 10 days to wait and hope the stbx doesnt' change her mind!
I'm not sure why you think htat filing and evil things are always hand in hand. Filing is jus tthe start of a clock ticking... a VERY SLOW clock in your state, but a clock, nonetheless. It does not mean tha tit's the end of negotiations, the beginning of your new life, the day your ex moves out (or the day you push her to move)... and it does not mean the day you start paying support, either. YOu MIGHT end up paying support IF she gets a lawyer right away after you file IF she moves out and IF she asks for the support. That's a lot of IFs...
If I were you, I'd tell her that i'm going to file because it takes 2 darned years to get it going, and she can stay till August anyways (if that was your plan), for financial reasons, and maybe while she's there with you, you can find a way to negotiate this so that you can stay friends and both afford to make ends meet after it's all over with.
The only time it's a rushed panic to find a lawyer and get filed and otu of the house is when peopl ehave waited so long that they're so hateful that they're having affairs and hurting each other's feelings or having screaming fits at each other or worse, accusing each otehr of violence and running to court for orders of protection.
Please don't assume when we answer the question, "when should I file", that we are answering, "when should she move out", and visa versa. The two issues are not necessarily hand in hand.
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gigi
Platinum
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5141
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I'm SURE I've told you about the asset split date before. I might have said the date you SERVE her, rather than the date you file... but it's generally close to teh same day. And you don't ACTUALLY split the assets on that day, but what you do is split responsibility for them, split equity on them, etc. It's the DATE that you set for the valuation fo the house, if you recall that discussion?
Most people, on that day, will open a new bank account for themselves. Also, that's the day after which is she dares to loot more money from teh joint accounts, she's in big trouble. It's the date after which your credit card expenses are all going to be attributed to you rather than split between both (though realistically, it doesn't matter whether you actually split the accounts, and it doesn't matter whether you pay for your lawyer before or after the date of teh filing... because your lawyer will probably be all on you unless you and she agree to share that expense.) Oh, and heck, I had a friend who paid for a girlfriend's diamond ring on his credit card before the split... STUPID, STUPID, STUPID... not only did he pay for it, but he looked like the jerkiest guy in teh world for buying a new girl expensive stuff (let alone diamonds) before filing for divorce!
The $1100 you are thinking of as what you'll have to pay her... if you end up apying all the expenses of the house, that $1100 goes to pay her RENT while she's still staying with you... and heck, probably also goes to pay for your services in maintaining her, shopping, cooking, cleaning. If you wanted, you could probably write up an agreement for that to happen... her paying $1100 a month rent and you paying $1100 a month alimony... you'd have to declare the rental income on your taxes, and could deduct it as alimony and it'd be a wash. Which is why most people don't do it like that, they just stay together till it's convenient to leave (one or the other gets fed up, gets a job, gets a new place, decides that they need to move, has family take them in)...
TEH date of filing is the date that you were asking about for getting a value of the house. What other date were you thinking it would be? Some made up date in you rhead when you thought she shoudl move out? Did you think you could wait till the market was on the upswing and then go back to the date it was at it's lowest value? You know better than that if you think about it. You KNOW that this had to have a fixed date and that you couldn't just choose the one that was the biggest advantage to you in hindsight, right?
Well, THAT is the fixed date.
I think a big part of this is that you're mixing the paperwork issues up with the negotiation issues and emotional issues, and they're all different. Yep, the paperwork DOES cause certain emotions to rise, but ... well, the fact that you're socializing and meeting new "friends" before filing the paperwork brings up an entirely NEW set of emotional issues that you probably do not want to have to respond to, to tell the truth.
I know you're trying ot be sensitive & give her time, but in thinking through this, you've overthought it and over-looked some vital things... like that the date of the paperwork makes it easier for people to understand the date you've decided to move on and find new girls for your social life! In trying to be sensitive, you may be doing one of the most IN-sensitive things that a man can do.
The date of the filing is an emotional one, but the ONLY thing thing it REALLY does is start a timeline running and fix a DATE as the date of separation ... separation of assets, separation in official papers... the fact that there's not an official separation of homes, of assets, of hearts... well, that's stuff that all happens over time, but the date you relate back to when referring to the date of the split for purposes of evaluating the timeline, the behavior, the price of the assets. THAT is what the day of filing is REALLY all about.
Phooey... how can I explain this better? OK... I've got it... this is NOT like the date that you asked her to marry you or gave her the diamond ring. It's more like the date you BOUGHT the ring... it fixed teh price of the ring, it caused you to make an emotional commitment to go ahead & ask her to marry you, & it suggested that you would follow through and say "I DO" if all the plans and such went properly through the next several months. But it did not by any means mark the date that she moved in with you, and you did not give her your credit card and carte blanche to charge away her life on that day... it's just the day that you negotiated and signed on teh bottom line for the price of the ring. THe day you file the paperwork for the divorce is like THAT>.. the price of the house on that day is relevant, but she may or may NOT move out... you are committed to doing something ... but can always back out of it if you want until it's final. And it marks the day that you SHOULD have an emotional commitment to her to the point where if she later finds out that you aksed the sales clerk at the jewelry store for a date, your wife would PROBABLY be as angry as if she found out that you met a new girl before you filed for divorce. It's considered tacky...
THAT PART OF it has no legal significance, but it IS tacky. EVEN if you've told her that you wnat to move on.
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gigi
Platinum
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5141
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I was curious, so I just looked up the PA law on this. You CAN get a divorce without separation in PA if you have mutual consent for it. But 90 days have to pass after filing for it. If you can get consent from her ANY time during that 90 days and get her to sign the mutual consent form, divvying up things as you choose between you, then the judge will allow you to get divorced and live together as long as you and she choose to remain as roommates.
The 2 year period is for separation and non-contested divorces where you don't get consent. It's possible to show "separation" even though you're living together, but it's not easy. I'd suggest that maybe having a rent and alimony agreeemnt in place where you pay her alimony in exchange for her paying you rent while she stays with you... well, that might solve that problem of making the timeline start to run. And becasue she's handicapped and a physical move is more difficult than for most, the jduge would probably allow you to use this to prove it.
If she gets advice, however, I think she'll find that a mutual consent divorce where she agrees to everythign and signs on the bottom line is FAR more preferable to an uncontested 2 year separation type divorce. I know she doesn't want the divorce, but some people, when they realize it's inevitable and they lose rights if they don't deal with it, are more willing to negotiate and give consent. And FILING would be the thing that might make her more likely to realize this.
And if she remains in the house with you for several months after the filing, you've got a GOOD chance of helping her figure out that a mutual consent divorce is way preferable and that you're willing to be more helpful and nice to her if she saves you the lawyers' fees than if she fights it to the death.
Truly, this seems to be the way to go.
Pennsylvania is SO weird... but not as strange as I thought... I mean GEEE>.. I couldn't figure how ANY state could force people to stay entnagled for 2 years, but now I know, this is just for the default divorces (which is really a substitute for the old-fashioned fault-based "abandonment"... and generally just suggests that he person has abandoned their willingness to be responsible and deal with it, even though you now where they are and can find them and maybe even talk to them a lot... they're GONE for purposes of the divorce, so it makes sense to make the timeline on that style of divorce be as long as the abandonment timeline. But if you only want a consent decree... it's a whole lot faster. Not as fast as the 21 days from start to finish that MY divorce took... but still, not TWO YEARS!
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Starion
Gold
Reged: 03/04/08
Posts: 142
Loc: South Florida
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I am not positive about PA family/divorce law but I think you can find out because most states have that kind of stuff on line. It would be very wise IMO for you to search PA family law and read and learn as much as you can.
Your handle is "What will I lose". Well.... possibly everything - if you insist on making excuses for her and not protecting yourself and trying to be the preverbial "nice guy". Divorce rarely ends up being amicable all the way thru.
I would advise you practice one of the age old advices - prepare for the worst and hope for the best. If you don't, you may end up like lots and lots of others who thought that "everything will work out" but ended up so back end sore it takes years to stand up straight again.
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What will I lose
Platinum
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 760
Loc: PA
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[quote]EEEK.
If you hold off on filing until you get everythign settled, and you re-finance, sign her car over to her, have her sign your house & cars over to you... and take your own sweet time in getting enough savings to hire a lawyer and file... and in the meantime the value of the stfuf that you got from her has raised... you're going to owe her half.
[/quote]
specifically about refi...i'm 100% going to attempt to refi...but what and when i'll be refinancing is the questions.
1.20K 2nd mortgage high rate
2 20K plus 90K 1st mortgage
So i'm unsure to go to an independent mortgage guy now and say hey, pull my credit and tell me what you will max loan me and that gives me at least an idea of what they will give me
then i can worry about what will the house appraise for etc later on. But truth is if they wont give me enough to at least refi the 2nd mortgage, thats gonna hurt. And if they will give me a 'nice' lump sum in addition to paying off both mortgages, that gives me money in pocket to negotiate with but obvious i wont tell her about that.
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call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.
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mrpat
Platinum
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 2728
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Try American Equity Mortgage. One of the largest lenders if not the largest in the country. Don't worry they don't play games and are very professional. If you have a adjustable motgage the goverment is offering some nice loans that might fit what you need. I have a lender that has approached me in the last few weeks on this if you need/want his # let me know.
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What will I lose
Platinum
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 760
Loc: PA
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[quote]I'm SURE I've told you about the asset split date before. I might have said the date you SERVE her, rather than the date you file... but it's generally close to teh same day. And you don't ACTUALLY split the assets on that day, but what you do is split responsibility for them, split equity on them, etc. It's the DATE that you set for the valuation fo the house, if you recall that discussion?
Most people, on that day, will open a new bank account for themselves. Also, that's the day after which is she dares to loot more money from teh joint accounts, she's in big trouble. It's the date after which your credit card expenses are all going to be attributed to you rather than split between both
[/quote]
i remember the number part of valuation of house but i guess i got bogged down in numbers, no the date thing.
I assume your looting comment means even though she has her name on the account that i refuse to close, she cant get at it because she never put money in it right?
when you mention credit card expenses goign to be attributed to me, do you mean everything on the card previously or do you mean stuff i charge from today forward (ie atty fees)
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call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.
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mrpat
Platinum
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 2728
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Your the one that is employeed and if the card is in your name the court will make you take the debt reguardless. You are at a severe disadvantage because your spouse is disabled. Do not run up a bunch of bills and then file for divorce you will carry all debt that looks like your using your situation to your advantage hopeing for a split of debt.
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What will I lose
Platinum
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 760
Loc: PA
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[quote]Your the one that is employeed and if the card is in your name the court will make you take the debt reguardless. You are at a severe disadvantage because your spouse is disabled. Do not run up a bunch of bills and then file for divorce you will carry all debt that looks like your using your situation to your advantage hopeing for a split of debt. [/quote]
cards in both names...i am using the card for paymt of atty and have no issue paying that...also the 4-5K that is in there now can easily be traced to individual house items so if i get to keep X , i have no issue paying the visa bill for X. If she takes X, she better pay me for X or give me a credit
i took all debt and all assets in 1st D and have no problem doing it again...its fair. Of course she already hinted she will fight for certain things :)
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call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.
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