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What will I lose
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Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 739
Loc: PA
women: is there any answer that would comfort you?
      #188489 - 03/21/08 09:21 AM (12.76.67.207)
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summary for those not following my case (GREATLY simplified but you'll get the idea): disabled wife since 2000 and she has barely lifted a finger to help herself, i did it 'all' for all these years and wont even take simple doctor advice that her body will not heal until she quits smoking. As i cant sit her and watch her slowly die, I'm leaving. She also doesnt want me to have any life outside the house and i just cannot be her total world anymore since 2 depressed people in a house is not a good thing.

So last night she asked me yet again if there is anything she can do to save the marriage. She has a strong hint i'll be filing soon since she told me the other day she wont hire an atty until i do file. I started telling her again why i'm leaving. She makes no effort, it's 100% me in the marriage, and she tosses the vow in my face and i brought up she isnt living up to her end too.

Of course she tosses out the disability card and says i'm just tired of taking care of her and am throwing her out. She said the reason the past few months she has been helping more around the house is she is taking more pain pills and is still in a lot of pain. I never asked her this but i dont understand why she even is doing 'more' than she ever has? I guess to save the marriage maybe? Well she recently started only smoking in the kitchen, away from me. This is unheard of and unprecedented but i guess since i told her i think its rude she smoked in there while her mom stayed with us but wont give me, her husband, the same respect, that i was quite unhappy about it.

So of course now i'm feeling bad..not bad enough to cancel my atty appointment on thursday but she sure is a master of playing the disability card on me. It took me a year to even get to this point yet somehow i think she thinks i thought of this overnight. I'm a very indecisive person most of the time so i guess she forgot that part. I did think about it long and hard and what it comes down to is the weeks she was away with family, i was at peace in my house and was more than happy to be alone. So my answer to myself is, yes i want out. But i still do NOT have the heart to tell her it was so nice not having her around. I also cant tell her i dont find her the least bit attractive anymore and i think it's nuts she only showers every 2 weeks and never gets dressed and just lounges around in a nightgown 24/7. I just cannot be that mean.

But is that what she wants? me to tell her all that stuff? I'm asking you ladies if you would want to hear that 'cold hard truth' because, as our therapist told her, I dont think any answer i give her will ever make her prepared for the D. And i dont see any point in telling her more. Oh and by the way she says she's filing a consumer complaint against the therapist but didnt elaborate. She does blame her and my therapist for our divorce. Said that to her face.

and oh she did ask me if i will be mad that she is going to want alimony and i said no i expected that. But i hope you will work with me on it because i cant pay a lot today unless i get the house refied and get money out. Amazing how she can turn off the tears and tell me 'what am i supposed to do, tell my atty that you cant pay so i want less alimony now and more later?" See when she says stuff like that, it reinforced my belief that she is a calculating person and just turns on the tears to jerk at my heart. A sad person wouldnt bring up alimony in the middle of all this emotional stuff.

so what do you think? cold hard truth to drive a further big wedge between us or just let things as they are?

--------------------
call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.


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JenH03
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Re: women: is there any answer that would comfort you? [Re: What will I lose]
      #188569 - 03/21/08 01:58 PM (75.31.105.218)
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"But is that what she wants? me to tell her all that stuff? I'm asking you ladies if you would want to hear that 'cold hard truth' because, as our therapist told her, I dont think any answer i give her will ever make her prepared for the D. "

I think it's just human nature for any of us to try to soften the blow as much as possible, no matter what. When I was divorcing my ex, he knew all the sh*t he was doing, he knew how mean and abusive he was to me, he knew he had major drug and gambling problems, but somehow it was still hard for me to tell him outright what a [censored] he was and that's why I was leaving him. Unless we were in one of those total knock-out fights, then of course it all came out and I heard from him what a horrible person I was also.

Did I do him any favors by sugar coating everything? Probably not. I'm know it was a huge blow the day he got the divorce papers in the mail, because he always held out hope that I'd take him back, even though we were living completely apart and hardly spoke. He thought I just needed time to figure out what I wanted, and I made him feel that way a little bit because it was easier than telling him the truth. At first when we separated I did want to try to work things out and I hadn't given up, but after awhile, I started moving on with my life, finding out how much better it was without him in it, and I knew I was going to file for divorce before I let him know.

I doubt he would have taken it any better had he known for as long as I did that we were going to divorce. Even in the beginning of our separation, when we'd have huge blow outs and he'd ask me if I was going to file, I know he never really expected me to. I went back to him so many times during the course of our relationship so I'm sure he never thought it would really stick. Or maybe it was just huge denial on his part, because long after we divorced, he admitted that he knew he'd done a lot of horrible things and that as much as he used to blame me for ruining his life (by leaving him), he later thought more about how he'd ruined mine.

I'm not sure how much my reply will be of help to you, so sorry about that. But I guess my bottom line is that you need to act in a way that YOU feel comfortable with. In the end, whether you are completely upfront or if you end up sugar coating it, the result is going to be the same and and your wife is going to take it the same way, be it when you tell her yourself or when she finds out after being served with papers. Call me a chicken, but I couldn't do it til the very end. And even then it was just kind of a hint of what was coming.


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gigi
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Re: women: is there any answer that would comfort you? [Re: JenH03]
      #188579 - 03/21/08 02:45 PM (68.110.66.68)
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I gave an answer on your other thread before I saw this. I think the comforting part about it would be (a), the TRUTH about how maybe failing to bathe and continuing to smoke and ignoring her own health was a real issue for her, (b), that you believed she COULD improve, but that you truly believed that any improvement obtained would not be made with you still in her life, and (c), you loved her, but felt you'd failed her by not helping her improve.

Also, though it may not be entirely fair, leavign it open for the possibility of a reconciliation at some point in the far future after she's effectively addressed her issues so that you would no longer be her caretaker, I think, would comfort her for now. I would suggest that you might want to dispell her of the LIKELIHOOD of that happening at some point after she had moved, after the divorce was over, after the situation had stabilized, so that she wouldn't be holding onto hope of having YOU in teh future and she could truly move on. But if the POSSIBILITY of getting you back is what could make her leave and get a new situation where she COULD work on her issues... I'd definitely give her that as a possibility, for her own good... give her something to motivate her to start her journey to self-improvement.

Truly, she needs that.

Do NOT say nasty stuff to her like that you hate her, that she's caused you to grow to hate her, that she's a dirty, nasty, smelly person who doesn't deserve you... Explain that this has been a long, slow, descent into a very bad situation that you are not able to fix for her, and you knkwo this is not who she is, but you can't make it better for her. You've tried and it only gets worse. The combination of you plus her plus disability does not work, it simply spirals down, and you need to reverse the spiral for both of you, and that means divorce, unfortunately.

Truly, if you can get out of this without calling her a smelly, lazy, demanding nag, you're doing good. What I've been worried about with you is that you'd hold off for so long that the parting events would involve name-calling & nastiness just out of frustration.

Thank you for trying to find the gentle way to make her understand while not being unnecessarily cruel. It's goign to be a tough line to walk, thoug... telling enough to make her understand & leave and have hope for the future, while not being mean and demeaning.

Good luck.


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What will I lose
Platinum


Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 739
Loc: PA
Re: women: is there any answer that would comfort [Re: gigi]
      #188717 - 03/22/08 08:42 AM (208.101.129.213)
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[quote]I gave an answer on your other thread before I saw this. I think the comforting part about it would be (a), the TRUTH about how maybe failing to bathe and continuing to smoke and ignoring her own health was a real issue for her, (b), that you believed she COULD improve, but that you truly believed that any improvement obtained would not be made with you still in her life, and (c), you loved her, but felt you'd failed her by not helping her improve. [quote]

these are logical and true, should she press again, i may have to word things like this to give her a reason but she did say a few months ago not to make me the victim or make it about me (ie making myself look bad and using that as an excuse)

[quote] the possibility of a reconciliation at some point in the far future after she's effectively addressed her issues so that you would no longer be her caretaker,[quote]

the suggestion is logical but unfortunately with things as they are now, i dont want to give her any ammo to be able to say 'he's leaving me because i'm disabled.' I simply dont want that to be a reason i leave her. While i've said what i've said already and cant take it back, I do feel at this point saying 'hey get better and we can get back together' would hurt her more. And lends credence to her desire to pin me in a corner to say i'm leaving because i'm tired of taking care of a disabled person. regardless of the spin on that statement

[quote]
Explain that this has been a long, slow, descent into a very bad situation that you are not able to fix for her, and you knkwo this is not who she is, but you can't make it better for her. You've tried and it only gets worse. The combination of you plus her plus disability does not work, it simply spirals down, and you need to reverse the spiral for both of you, and that means divorce, unfortunately.
[quote]

i've said a version of this. I've told her whatever i've been doing the past 8 years hasnt worked. Obviously i've failed and i cant go on failing, she needs other help. Then she goes on about why cant you just take care of me like i am then i have to say i cant watch her self destruct and it deteriorates to the vow thing etc etc. But i do prefer putting this on me, just with my take on it. That i've failed to fix her vs i dont want to take care of a disabled person.

[quote]
Truly, if you can get out of this without calling her a smelly, lazy, demanding nag, you're doing good. What I've been worried about with you is that you'd hold off for so long that the parting events would involve name-calling & nastiness just out of frustration.[quote]

the one thing you can pretty much take to the bank about me is i ask myself the question "how will it benefit me if i say/do this?" being manipulative or saying things....i wont say them or do them unless they benefit me. And calling her names and being mean simply does not further my cause so i wont do it. Now maybe after the D is final and she's away...that's a different story. but then probably not either, its just not me. But i cannot think of a single instance where hurting her benefits me and im just not that kind of guy to be mean for the sake of being mean.

oh and for the record, i never smelled her being bad, just the knowing she didnt shower was my issue. Of course all the cig smoke stank too. And in regards to lazy see she told me that she was in pain whether touched her or not so she wants me to touch her. But then i think well if you are in pain no matter what why didnt you help me clean the house and call your doctors etc?

--------------------
call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.


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jbar
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Re: women: is there any answer that would comfort you? [Re: What will I lose]
      #188922 - 03/23/08 02:32 PM (68.88.197.155)
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The thing that I don’t understand about all this is how a court could order you to pay her medical bills and alimony, after the divorce becomes final, and she is no longer a member of your family. When a court dissolves a marriage, are not all of the vows the parties made when the marriage occurred also dissolved?

Without any voluntary agreement any longer existing to support such asset transfers, such orders from a court can only be seen as arbitrary seizure of property, in violation of the 5th and 14th amendments to the U.S. Constitution. I would love to see you fight this case based upon these facts, and rid people of such tyranny once and for all!


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tractormom
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Reged: 06/11/07
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Re: women: is there any answer that would comfort you? [Re: What will I lose]
      #188924 - 03/23/08 02:44 PM (68.194.114.46)
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after having read you story (at least 3 times) I have to ask you why you feel the need to "soften" the blow?
Your wife is the one who needs to get up off her sorry butt and find a life.
I have to ask; what are the chances she is addicted to pain medication? As for her smoking? How could you stand to live with ANYONE who smokes?
I would get filling A.S.A.P!! If she wanted this marriage saved, as she claims she does, she would have been in counseling YEARS AGO!!
You are entitled to have a life that you are happy with, and from what i read; you are not happy at all!
Another thing I want you to remember; Alimony is negociable!!! sounds like she thinks she will be sitting on her butt collecting money from you. You must protect your rights to make sure you pay as little as possible.
If she is truly disabled and can't work- it should be documented by a real doctor.
Get filling and go on with your life- she needs to grow up and be an adult.
and yes, I am a woman!!
Tractormom


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What will I lose
Platinum


Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 739
Loc: PA
Re: women: is there any answer that would comfort [Re: tractormom]
      #189029 - 03/23/08 08:26 PM (208.101.175.105)
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[quote]after having read you story (at least 3 times) I have to ask you why you feel the need to "soften" the blow?
Your wife is the one who needs to get up off her sorry butt and find a life.
I have to ask; what are the chances she is addicted to pain medication? As for her smoking? How could you stand to live with ANYONE who smokes?
I would get filling A.S.A.P!! If she wanted this marriage saved, as she claims she does, she would have been in counseling YEARS AGO!!
You are entitled to have a life that you are happy with, and from what i read; you are not happy at all!
Another thing I want you to remember; Alimony is negociable!!! sounds like she thinks she will be sitting on her butt collecting money from you. You must protect your rights to make sure you pay as little as possible.
If she is truly disabled and can't work- it should be documented by a real doctor.
Get filling and go on with your life- she needs to grow up and be an adult.
and yes, I am a woman!!
Tractormom [/quote]

I guess it shows you that i'm a bit ill myself :) I dont want to be mean to her. And she's been totally helpless for all these years, never paid bills or anything and being independent is gonna be a real shock to her system.

i've many times thought she is addicted to drugs. She was a heavy drinker when i met her and i know smoked pot with her friends. So doctors giving her stuff now isnt a good idea but what can i do? And even if i make a case that she's been doubling up on her prescriptions all these years, doesnt that actually make her case STRONGER that she has some kind of disablity? I do know i can make a case for the D that i've seen her fall asleep with a cig in her hand and that's a big reason i dont want to stick around and watch her die.

regarding doctors, she gets her 2 shrinks so sign off on her social security and since the depression continues, she keeps on getting it. Also our auto company did an IME a few year ago to keep on paying her bills and that doctor said she still needs care physically.

so while she only has one test that proves a pinched elbow, she is in so much pain she moves like a 100 yr old woman and every doctor will 'certify ' she is disabled.

of course id argue her sitting on her butt all these years contributed to it but is anyone really gonna take that into account?

--------------------
call me WWIL...PA resident 39 year old , married 11 years, together 12...splitting in 13th year.


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gigi
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Re: women: is there any answer that would comfort [Re: What will I lose]
      #189092 - 03/23/08 11:43 PM (68.110.66.68)
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You're looking at apples & oranges here. If you want to do what will keep her happy & make her understand without hurting her, you may give up some strategic advantage in negotiating a perfect settlement in your favor. You ever hear the term "can't have it all?", well, this is one area where you can't. If you fudge and tell her that you think it's all her disability and she can't help it and you are only making it worse and maybe she can only get better without your help, then you are giving up some advantage in proving that she is somehow at fault for her own situation and therefore deserves less in ongoing spousal support.

You have to make the decision on how to proceed, whether to do it the humane way, with apologies and niceties & etc., or whether you want to position yourself for maximum personal benefit. Think of the situation that most people in fender benders are faced with these days... they think twice about jumping out of their cars to APOLOGIZE to each other, for fear that their apology will be used against them by an oppositional stranger who wants to sue them in the near future. Yet the lack of this personal nicety is exactly what goads some strangers into becoming oppositional and suing each other these days.

Or the crazy situation of a shopper slipping & twisting an ankle in a store... all of a sudden the store's loss prevention team is all over the shopper, refusing to acknowledge responsibility for the event but promising to pay for a trip to get it x-rayed if only she promises to never contact a lawyer & sue them... refusing to apologize but acting coldly polite and businesslike to a shopper whose day has been ruined by the surprise of becoming injured. And any witnesses to the event who might have been inclined ot help or apologize are being kept away from the poor, injured shopper. It becomes an ordeal.

YOu are now in the same situation as the driver who wants to apologize or the loss prevention personnel who need to prepare for possible litigation. How long can you walk the tightrope of keeping her feeling good while never admitting a single thing that's going to hurt you? I KNOW you are a very controlled person and do not say things that have not been carefully thought through, but no one can keep that tight control for very long.

And if it helps, on the issue of her disability, you would RATHER her be addicted-disabled than physically incapacitated by her accident or emotionally incapacitated by a slow disintegration of her emotional status during the marriage (or because of the marriage). Insofar as addictions and disability are concerned, the world is less willing to accomodate and compensate an addict.

Truthfully, responsibility most emotional situations (including addictions) SHOULD be put squarely on the shoulders of the sufferer. Except maybe a clear case of post traumatic stress disorder, or (like a cousin of mine) a mental disorder brought on by an improperly prescribed course of treatment... which would be the fault of the person creating the stress or the doctor committing malpractice... a person with an emotional disorder is BEST served by making them take responsibility for their illness. It is NOT well-served by allowing them to blame it on others (Mom was not nurturing enough or their parents' divorce was stressful) and by making certain they buck up & resolve their issues on their own. AFTER the thing they say is responsible (your wife's accident) is over with, the world SHOULD say that she needs to handle the emotional stress of it herself, through counseling or whatever, and NOT become a strain on the system (via disability) or you (via alimony)... THIS would be the proper way to motivate her to resolve her issues.

BUT the world is not ready to accept that as a proper treatment plan for most people... and would rather allow people to excuse thier issues by blaming whoever or whatever.

STILL... ADDICTIONS is one of the few ways where it is perfectly acceptable to make the person be responsible for their own disability. Yes, you need to pursue the docs who are over-prescribing, but you are very lucky in THIS portion of your wife's issues, if you blame this on her ADDICTION, it is HIGHLY unlikely that anyone will make you pay for that.

I still don't agree that you should get hung up on whether you will be blamed for this stuff and will wreck your position if you HONESTLY resolve this while trying to leave her in some comfort. I truly believe that a LOT fo times, people would not find themselves in such oppositional, litigious situations if they had only taken the time to apologize.

I've been in a situation, professionally, to throw myself on the sword and take the blame many times for things, usually out of my control, sometimes in the control of an assistant or employee. I have found that standing up and accepting blame and being willing to fix problems has gotten me OUT of more ... for lack of a better term, "jackpots"... than it's gotten me into.

But you have to realize there is no perfectly formulated way that you can manage, no careful tightrope that you can walk, which will ensure a favorable solution for everyone.

I guess part of what I'm saying is that divorce sux. It's never good. It can be LESS AWFUL, but it's NEVER GOOD. EVERYONE loses, EVERYONE has to compromise, and if you refuse to compromise, the court will see to it that you lose more... There is no perfect plan, no amount of preparation, that will make it go right.

You can't have it all, be the nice guy who never hurts his wife, while at the same time walking out and leaving her with as little as possible to live off of. The two things are mutually exclusive.

I'm glad that you're trying, but you have to understand, there are no decisions on how to ease the blow to her which will not somehow POTENTIALLY affect your wallet.


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tookway2much
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Re: women: is there any answer that would comfort [Re: What will I lose]
      #193424 - 04/03/08 07:39 PM (72.65.136.86)
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No matter what you say or don't say you'll get the same response....... "OH MY GOD, HOW CAN YOU DO THIS TO ME"?
So I don't bathe but every 2 weeks, I saved you money on water and soap.

--------------------
I don't worry about the people in my past. There is a reason they are not in my future.


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Cryssyer
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Re: women: is there any answer that would comfort you? [Re: What will I lose]
      #197048 - 04/16/08 01:30 PM (65.217.168.7)
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So sorry, but I don't get why you are so concerned with her playing the disability card? Are you afraid that your reputation will suffer or something? You know why you are leaving. Tell her. If you have, and she still won't listen, throw up your hands and leave already. She will then be forced to work it out on her own. Sympathy or not, it sounds like you are enabling her more than helping her.

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