mistake#2
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Reged: 07/19/06
Posts: 3257
Loc: Florida
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After I refused to give an answer to the next set of suggested dates...I told him it would be irresponsible of me to just say yes or no without doing any research in regards to flight information, medical information to a date he just pulled out of his butt...so he told me he knew what I was trying to do and had already contacted FOC. So I asked why he was even discussing with me then if he thought I had an agenda and just discuss it with them then.
He said they told him if I did not give him an answer to a date that he would automatically by default get the last 4 weeks of summer.
How can that be when there is no summer visitation order period?
Is he full of crap or getting poor advice from FOC?
He even stated that there is no court order for visitation time, so he was hoping to work out a date with me...which doesn't make sense because he's never wanted to work out anything before, even agreed that he has never wanted to before but does this time.
Is he afraid that if he takes it to FOC himself that I WILL be able to force less visitation time? I showed my cards though by telling him if he was looking for an immediate answer from me then he could have the last week of summer with supervised visitation...because otherwise I was unable to give him one right now without having any further information.
I'm just going to sit back now and wait for FOC to contact me on a mediation date, and if he continues to call me repeatedly I will have to go ahead and file a report asking for a no contact order as he has challenged me in that regard telling me if I think I can get it then go ahead.
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gigi
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Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5141
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I assume you checked MI law regarding what visitation is for summers or vacations is if there is no other court order to the contrary, and that it does NOT give him this time. Or that your initial decree fo divorce does not give this time by default if no otehr time is agreed to?
If so, then it's highly likely that he is just blowing smoke up your butt.
Here's the thing... EITHER he has a reason to believe he gets what he says he wants OR he is lying about what the FOC says. People are ALWAYS saying, "my lawyer says this" or "that"... but it doens't mean they'v eacutally even talked to a lawyer, let alone gotten that advice. A LOT of what lawyers do is to make clear that they did NOT give the wacky advice that their clients keep wanting to SAY they gave! The foolish stuff they have to do... the crazy questions when you see those lists... it's always because someone actually questioned it when they did othewise previously... like the series of questions, question "So, hwen you did the autopsy, was the patient dead?"... answer "are you sure you are smart enough to HAVE a license to practice law?" ... question, "how do you KNOW he was dead"... answer "his brain was in a jar on my desk. How do we know you're smart enough to practice law?"
Clearly... it sounds like the medical examiner is beating up on the lawyer, and it might be that hes' looking pretty smart here... but the lawyer in the grand scheme of things MUST ask these questions... if he did not confirm that the guy being autopsied was DEAD first, then the doctor doing the autopsy would be subject to all kinds of horrifying questions about how he confirmed this stuff... so the doc being mean to the lawyer about asking these qualifying questions is just being a jerk about preliminaries JUST to be a prideful jerk... not because it makes a lot of sense. The LAWYER sure knows that this stuff is pretty dumb... but they pretty much HAVE to establish it so the doc needs to answer the questions befor ethey can go on.
You'll see this when you get your law degree... lots of this stupid stuff that lawyers do is more to protect themselves or their witness than it is to really get the evidence to the jury... and part of that is because people like your ex say stupid stuff ... like that their lawyer (or the FOC) told them this or that or the other thing that was WRONG.
IF you worry that the FOC todl him something that was improper according to your interpretation, then why don't YOU just contact the FOC & explain the situation & aks what's up? WHY would they tell him that he could have a whole month unspervised? You'll probably find that they did NOT tell him that... or if someone in their office DID tell him that, then it was in error & the'll be backpedaling QUICKLY.
This is assuming your interpretation of the current orders in conjunction with general MI law and the decree is correct. If your interpretation is in error and there IS some way he can get tha tmuch unsupervised time... you may want to know this. Which is why you may wnat to call them... to get it clear.
Also, calling them might clue them into the fact that he's slandering them and claiming that they're saying things they didn't say at all... which might help you in the long run.
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mistake#2
Platinum
Reged: 07/19/06
Posts: 3257
Loc: Florida
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I'm sure your right. I checked on the order last year, trying to get a copy of any other order before that and there was NONE as the divorce decree was the order entered before. I rechecked all the papers and it simply states visitation order for extended parenting time summer of 2007. It is very specific as to dates...June 8th 2007 started visitation, very specific as to 4 weeks for summer of 2007. That is the ONLY order on file beyond the divorce decree...it goes on to state that any future extended parenting time will be mediated by FOC, the divorce decree states the same thing.
If he isn't blowing smoke then he didn't talk to someone in regards to our particular case and just asked a general question of what happens if, that's what I will assume until I hear otherwise.
I don't see how I could be forced to send child for specific dates when there is no court order and that is one thing I know my attorney would advise against...if there isn't a court order to send him, then there obviously isn't one stating he has to RETURN him either.
I have to contact FOC this week anyhow in regards to changing my address but I really didn't want to be the one to start the mediation.
I just wondered if anybody else ever heard of such a thing...visitation dates by default without an order?
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gigi
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Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5141
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No, there is no visitation by default unless there is a state law to the contrary.
OK... here's the problem, if he really HAS contacted the FOC, then you need to worry that he's going to get this person on his side because you've not been "reasonable" in agreeing to something without thier mediation. SOOOO... when you contact them this week for your change of address, have the stuff explaining why you don't think he should get unsupervised visitation this summer right on the top of the things next to you. If you get a chance, say, as an aside... oh, by the way, has he contacted you fro a date for mediation of this summer's visitation, because he is telling me that your office is saying stuff that's just contrary to the decree and I can't beleive that he's telling the truth about this since you've not heard the whole story. WHat happened, when he came for Thanksgiving, he beat up our son and there were some healthcare issues because of his treatment, so I told him NO unsupervised this summer, which is what I thought I was allowed to do according to the current plan, but he is saying that someone from your office talked to him and said that he automatically gets time... which makes no sense to me. Since I've changed addresses, is it possible that he's given you information that he didn't give ot me and he got you to talk to him and give him a ruling without my input?
If you say it just like that, IF they have some wack-o employee who might have given him information over the phoen, they'll be sure to get on the stick & remind all their employees not to give a hint of what is going to happen until they're sure the whole process has been followed through... and if he is LYING about them telling him this stuff... well, now they knwo that he's lied about them saying somthign and it doesn't look good on THEM... which is usually something that people, even in a bureaucray, are most interested in making certain gets CORRECTED. officially!
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mistake#2
Platinum
Reged: 07/19/06
Posts: 3257
Loc: Florida
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Gigi, what you've posted is logical...but FOC just doesn't work that way. They are overloaded and you usually can't get a call back from your own caseworker. I think I've talked to mine once in 11 years. Mediation is worked with both of us there on a set date, not something that the mediator decides independently or even takes one of us into account without the other (unless one person doesn't show to the meeting)...they are simply there to mediate an agreement between the two of us and write the order as to what we agreed, not to make a decision themselves. They can make suggestions as to how to come to an agreement. I'm under no obligation to mediate it without their help, as it states all future parenting will be mediated THROUGH the FOC.
I am still getting mail at both address as we haven't yet rented or sold the other house.
Unfortunately they really don't care if someone gave out wrong information, they often tell people to call their attorney, that they can't give legal advice or to fill out paperwork but then continue on in generalized statements. Talking falls on deaf ears so explaining all that has transpired in the last 12 months really is pointless until it goes further through the process. I either have to mediate it to an agreement or bring it to court...I've filled out paperwork in the past in regards to his violation of court orders and was basically told that they could not enforce anything beyond the visitation dates & that I would need to sue him in civil court. They really are useless.
After reading the posts more and doing some thinking I am almost positive that he assumed there was a court order for visitation time, just no specific dates and he asked someone general questions in regards to that.
I can almost hear him asking "what do I do for my 4 weeks if she won't call me back to give me a date?".
He also stated that the reason he was sending them copies of the phone records & a copy of the letter he wrote me (which I haven't received yet) was because they told him to send them copies of everything he sent to me...that too sounds like a generalized statement in regards to documenting that he asked for his 4 weeks.
I'm just frustrated having to deal with his dumba$$. It's stressful not knowing what's going to happen but I guess worst case scenario would be that I have to send my son for 4 weeks at the end of the summer. It's funny how he doesn't even ask for visitation of our daughter, it's too easy to document abuse with her there so I'm sure he'd rather not deal with it rather than risk it.
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gigi
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Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5141
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How INCREDIBLY frustrating. OK... I'm just mostly worried that they don't do two things... first, hold a hearing without you getting official notice because of the change of address and I guess you've got that covered... and second, that he doesn't get the chance to give someone a false impression of what's happening.
I've found that id never hurts to have the low level clerical employees understanding what's really going on. NOt that they really care for the most part, but as long as you say it in a way that doesn't piss them off, if doesn't hurt if they know that you're doing everything you can to do the right thing and your husband is one of those few who is just being nutty because he's so abusive that the judge really DOES have an order requiring supervision even 11 years afte rthe divorce... and he's caling them to get them to give him information without telling the whole story.
They usually don't like to find they've been duped into saying wrong stuff... not that you ahve to pound it into thier heads, just kind of... I don't knwo... mention it if you get an opening...
And you never know who it will end up with... this information that you've just mentioned.
Look... here's teh thing, I tell people to walk into the courthouse as if the judge is the person standing in line next to them at the security checkpoint, because even IF the judges have a separate netrance for security, their clerks do NOT... and the clerk who sees you walk into court may very well be the one who hears your ex say something really nasty and then when they walk into the office they say, "you should have HEARD the jerk going through security today when he saw his ex..." And next thing you know, she's walking into court and says to the bailiff "Oh... MY... GOD... GUESS WHO is sitting out there in the courtroom?!!!" They usually don't even need to walk IN to the courtroom to figure this out... they have videocameras doing DVDs of the courtrooms these days... and here they are... just ahving described this ridiculous tirade that your ex had about you on the way into court for anyone to witness, and here he is sitting in HER judge's courtroom! Don't think the judge's don't hear about it. They put it aside when they walk into the courtroom, but it's clear that they DO hear this stuff and if your ex turns out to sound like he's a big fat liar, of course the judge will be saying in the back of her mind (yep, sounds just like what the clerk saw this morning)... confirming their opinion of him as a big fat liar.
It doesn't hurt.
I know the FOC is a totally separate system, but they ARE in an office and it doesn't hurt to chat up the lower level people (the telephone answerers, for example)... as you NEVER know if the FOC assigned to your case is dating the telephone receptionist and will hear on his lunch break about how she had this call from some woman whose ex was a real piece of work... apparently she's living in florida and he keeps abusing the kids and he has no visitation and he's trying to pull some trick to force unsupervised visitation to take place by default or something... no doubt he'll remember the situation when he hears FLORIDA and ABUSE again about 3 weeks from now when you're actually in the mediation with him, you knwo?
You NEVER know what's going on behind the bullet-proof glass in those offices, and it never hurts to be the one who is just trying to do right, whose story is memorable nad obviously righteous.
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jersey girl
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Reged: 08/07/06
Posts: 1629
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Mistake,
Here is my concern. If you don't get this resolved, he IS going to get extended visitation. I think you need to push the mediation harder.
He can't just take the kids for 4 weeks. But, if he goes into mediation in September, then it will work against you to not have given him any.
I know the abuse issues alone warrant a more permanent solution, but no judge is going to say that they agreed to extended visitation one year with an intention to not have any the following - it doesn't follow due process.
I think you need to answer on the issue of mediation only and tell him that he needs to schedule it immediately to resolve the summer vacation.
I guess what I am thinking is that the documented abuse is still an allegation to the court. I am not sure of the status on all of the stuff you have been through. But if you don't mediate, it all becomes weakened as evidence.
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mistake#2
Platinum
Reged: 07/19/06
Posts: 3257
Loc: Florida
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[quote] If you don't get this resolved, he IS going to get extended visitation. I think you need to push the mediation harder.
**In the mediation, we need to either come to an agreement or it will be put in front of a judge. I don't think he's going to agree to supervised visitation, so I have to assume that it will go in front of a judge.
(quote)
He can't just take the kids for 4 weeks. But, if he goes into mediation in September, then it will work against you to not have given him any.
**How does it work against me if there is no court ordered visitation?
(Quote)I know the abuse issues alone warrant a more permanent solution, but no judge is going to say that they agreed to extended visitation one year with an intention to not have any the following - it doesn't follow due process.
**Yes, I agree...the last time he took the kids was when CPS got involved. I still think I don't have enough documentation for supervised visits and was hoping to get through summer without visitation or at least very minimal so that more documentation could be received throughout the next year at the shorter court ordered visits that take place here in FL.
(quote)I think you need to answer on the issue of mediation only and tell him that he needs to schedule it immediately to resolve the summer vacation.
I guess what I am thinking is that the documented abuse is still an allegation to the court. I am not sure of the status on all of the stuff you have been through. But if you don't mediate, it all becomes weakened as evidence. [/quote]
I finally did tell him to go ahead and contact FOC for mediation...I don't want to push for a quick date as that will give him more opportunity to try and get J for 4 weeks.
It's hard, I'm trying to minimize the abuse yet foster a positive relationship between the two yet hope that I can get more documentation so that it will STOP. Yes, the abuse is still an allegation in the eyes of the court. CPS hasn't been back in contact after they had MI CPS visit ex and I highly doubt he admitted anything so I really don't understand the point of that visit either other than to put him on notice.
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jersey girl
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Reged: 08/07/06
Posts: 1629
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See -this is where I go back to. No judge is going to admit that they allowed an agreement to go through with only one years visitation and then he gets nothing without mediation. I know that they did, but my guess is that you will be the villain for denying visitation AND not doing mediation.
I am burnt on the courts doing the right thing, but that is the only piece here where I think you could get caught up. I would suggest putting a letter on file with the FOC requesting mediation. Send it snail mail so it is in writing. I am guessing that they won't get it scheduled until months from now. I am also guessing that he will miss one or two dates because of the distance.
But at least you did something. The court hates when you don't use mediation for this type of thing before going to them. You know it will be useless, but you have to go through the motions. aT the very least, it is one more person that sees how unreasonable he is. It also gives you a feel for how people are going to react to the evidence you have.
Ask for shuttle mediation (not in the same room) so that the emotions don't get out of control.
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mistake#2
Platinum
Reged: 07/19/06
Posts: 3257
Loc: Florida
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I see what you mean...and since he'll probably be asking for mediation anyhow, I may as well go ahead.
I will not be there as I live 1300 miles away, so it's done with him there and me via telephone...so I don't think it's able to be as you called shuttled.
Over the phone is easier to keep emotions in check though, especially when I have my points written down on paper.
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jersey girl
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Reged: 08/07/06
Posts: 1629
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I think that you asking will work in your favor. I think he is bluffing a bit. But the court requires you to live up to your end of the agreement which is that the agreement will be mediated this year.
I also think that he doesn't think you'll bring more abuse allegations, so the surprise is on your side.
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