stoltz
Platinum
Reged: 01/29/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: Texas
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Did you know that editorials are someone's opinion? They can spin their words to get whatever point across they want.
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So, you don't agree with this person's "opinion"?
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I agree to a point that men are basically bashed on TV.
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So, you agree with SOME of the person's opinion?
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However, if it were the women getting bashed, women would probably just stop watching TV!
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"You" may not, but you better believe that some women's rights group (and/or feminists) would be beating down the doors of both the Hollywood producer's office and the FCC DEMANDING the shows be "edited" as they portray a poisonous message.
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But, men don't seem to mind watching shows that degrade men since the shows seem to stay on the air. What does that say?
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SOME men don't. And it's usually men who are blinded by the fact and/or go along with it as they cannot (or will not) think for themselves to see that their denial (or complete abstinence) is the same as condoning the issue.
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I'm not saying that there aren't women out there who abuse men. However, in my 45 years, I have never met one. I have met women who were abused by men, though. Several of them.
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Maybe your definition of abuse is skewed (purposely or accidentally)? Most physical abuse is done in private, so the actual witnessing of the action is usually difficult. Other attributes come into play when there is physical abuse. For example, a woman may not like something a man said or did and slap him in the face. Whether or not this is on TV or not, the action is usually - as one of the commenters said - comical as best and condoned at worst. It must have been the man's fault. Never mind that it WAS physical abuse. What has happened is that our society has given separate limits to things like physical abuse when it comes to genders all because one is portrayed as being able to "take it" and the other "needing to protect" themselves. Politics has also intervened and has also shown to give similar limits as far as gender.
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You'd need to start a forum for abused men to come to more of a consensus on that one. If you think there's a problem, stand up for it and your rights. Complaining here isn't going to get you noticed.
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There are many more out there already, and if I had the resources to do so, yes, I would start one as well.
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You'd need to go through political channels. media channels. Write to Oprah. Who knows? Take your message outside this forum.
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Who says I haven't? Besides why should I take it out of a "Men's Rights" forum when it has everything to do with "Men's Rights" (especially when it comes to divorce/father's rights)? Maybe they should just remove this particular forum on the message board - is that what I'm hearing?
Actually, this kind of reminds me of those bulletin boards on the side of the road that have the words "DO BULLETIN BOARDS WORK? IT JUST DID."
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germangirl631
Platinum
Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 1281
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[quote]You've NEVER known an abused man? The reason you think you never met an abused man is that the men don't speak up and talk about it.... So don't assume that you've never met a man who was abused. You've just never met one who was going to admit it to you. [/quote]
OK. So, now men are just shutting up and taking it? Well shame on them, then. They need to speak up to get the help they need! The women I know belong to a single parent's group I joined. We all share our issues, and one of them for a large majority of the women was abuse.
Abused men should also get the help they need. But, if they're not going to speak up, they're definitely not going to get ANY help.
I do know a man who was slapped by his wife. That is my stbx who was slapped by wife #1. When he told me about it, I thought how rude was she to slap him. But now I can see why she possibly might have crossed the line and done it. I'm not condoning it in any way. But I had many times I wanted to slap the sh!t out of him for the way he acted and treated me, but I didn't because that's not in my nature. Plus, I thought if I slapped him, he might hurt me back (like go to the hospital hurt) so I didn't temp fate. I have many holes in my walls and doors from that man. Thank God those blows weren't to MY body.
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gigi
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Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5141
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There's also the issue that in most families with two parents, the division of labor is such that the women are more often home alone with the kids, especially at a time when the kids are totally dependent, crying, whining, pooping machines that you really can't get a good escape from. And when they start creeping, crawling, toddling... it's worse... the attention that you've got to pay to them is constant.
Which is not an excuse for being more abusive... but an explanation of why women are more reported for child abuse... they're THERE more.
Now, if it turned out that women are the primary caregivers 60% of the time but commit 66% of the child abuse, then it looks like they are more violent towards kids... or if they're the primary caregivers 90% of the time (as often complained about here) and commit 66% of the child abuse, then it looks a LOT like maybe they're LESS violent, huh?
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germangirl631
Platinum
Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 1281
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[quote]You'd need to start a forum for abused men to come to more of a consensus on that one. If you think there's a problem, stand up for it and your rights. Complaining here isn't going to get you noticed.
Who says I haven't? Besides why should I take it out of a "Men's Rights" forum when it has everything to do with "Men's Rights" (especially when it comes to divorce/father's rights)? Maybe they should just remove this particular forum on the message board - is that what I'm hearing?
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No, I'm saying a whole new site for abused men. This is a divorce site. I do agree that men get the short end of the stick in many instances. And politics and government are pushing that agenda. But, Men need to stand up and get noticed for the issue. Not sit by and blindly let it happen to them. Women did that for too many years, and now we finally have some rights and support because we fought for them.
It's time for men to try to equalize those rights. It has all gone too far. But, it doesn't happen by itself. Someone has to get the ball rolling. That doesn't happen on a divorce site.
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stoltz
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Reged: 01/29/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: Texas
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That doesn't happen on a divorce site.
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Why not? Sometimes it isn't until a man goes through a divorce that their eyes are finally opened to the bias that exists in the court system and society itself. And sometimes even after they go through "the wringer" they still don't see it. However, once they see that other men are also experiencing it AND writing to tell about it, THEN it starts to sink in (for some - not all).
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chatter box
Platinum
Reged: 11/09/07
Posts: 1304
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[quote
However, once they see that other men are also experiencing it AND writing to tell about it, THEN it starts to sink in (for some - not all). [/quote]
Stoltz sounds like Jim Jones preaching that those had to be brought into inlightenment-socialism. Then talked everyone into drinking poison.
Fact is most men are not abused and are happy. It is much easier to convence guys that are vernrable that they are unhappy because of the system. Have you ever heard any advise other then to hate the system?
This might be a better sight for this http://www.menarebetterthanwomen.com/
Edited by chatter box (05/28/08 06:20 PM)
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theanswerguy
Platinum
Reged: 04/12/07
Posts: 2267
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Do men, in general, not care about their image as a gender?
>>>>>>>> No , men view other men as competition .
Do women control the airwaves?
>>>>>>>>> No , TV programs offer what the public desires , the current trend is men as ineffectual nothings or incompetant losers . No character like Archie Bunker would make the airwaves today but nobody bats an eyelash for a shrieking shrew like Roseanne . How many TV shows in the last 40 years have focused on divorced custodial mothers ? Ever seen one about a divorced custodial father ? Any programs about men with kids involve widowers or men that have visitation .
Do women stand up for what they believe in more than men?
>>>>>>>>> Yes but only in terms of gender specific causes , men donate more time and money to charity . Because of our paternalistic society , those causes usually benefit women exclusively . The feminists have it wrong , paternalism isn't a mechinism to hold women down but to protect them from the vagaries of fate .
Is our society messed up? (I'll answer that one - YES!!)
>>>>>>>>>> Yup , men are disenfranchised at an alarming rate . Look into any inner city and see the result .
Do we have a lack of male role models in the media? (YES again)
>>>>>>>>>>> Hardly . Blame the media for demonizing men and failed government social policies for making divorce economically feasible .
Has the women's movement gone too far?
>>>>>>>>>>> Only in creating generations of messed up kids . Boys with no male role modals to teach them to be men and girls that don't see the use of a father for their children .
Are women more at risk from violent abuse at the hands of men than visa versa? (I'd say yes since men are physically stronger than women)
>>>>>>>>> The cop out . It's true , some men are violent , many women are as well . The sad fact is most interpersonal violence is mutual . Women are being told it's ok , it's only abuse if HE does it .
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Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right. Isaac Asimov
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gigi
Platinum
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5141
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I don't know. I agree that Stoltz has drunk the koolaid of a lot of blogs, but the issue of domestic violence is on this website as a separate forum even, but rarely do men even visit that group because ... well, men don't usually identify themselves as victims.
And the issue of unfair treatment of men is what has caused a whole bunch of wrong things to happen with kids that we've seen here. Your own daughter was initially placed with her wack-o, alienating, kidnapper mother... and though I don't remember the whole back story, I'd venture a guess that either you or the mother or the judge had that very sexist opinion that kids are better off with mothers in general and/or Dad's can't do the same job.
Unless we talk about it, it won't change.
I don't agree that the extremist talk littered with net-speak like VAWA and SCROTUM... (sic) is the way to impress anyone or get anyone's minds changed. The problem with that talk is that's it's GREAT among the guys who are already like minded... on their blogs & such... but it's a signal of someone who doesn't think beyond the extremist blogs and therefore is discounted by the general public.
Nevertheless... THIS article is not quite so peppered with extremist rhetoric. If only the discussions of it could remain as credible, then maybe we'd make some headway.
We do need to keep up the discussion, though...
What I worry about is a backlash when the pendulum swing sends it back in the pro-men position... to me, the goal would be to stop the pendulum from swinging quite so wildly and to let the way things go settle into a neutral position from which extreme situations will be properly recognized and dealt with, rather than either ignored or treated with extreme measures.
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EZmark
Platinum
Reged: 06/04/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Florida
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"But, men don't seem to mind watching shows that degrade men since the shows seem to stay on the air. What does that say?"
It says men aren't important to the advetisers on those shows. The Neilsen research shows that women 24-48 are 90% of the viewership for the sitcoms and daytime shows. The evenings demographic is growing similarly as the evening programs become more female theme oriented. Almost all news producers, and increasing numbers (in many media groups the majority) of entertainment production and sales management is women. I'm not saying that women in management is bad, actually I think it is good, but you think you are so smart GG? The commercials are targeting YOU. You are just eyeballs and a wallet, a demographic. The content is being tweaked anti-male to please you. Are you being entertained? Are you buying the products?
When men begin to protest by not buying from those sponsers the content will begin to change. The sponsers will motivate the producers or pull their spots. That kind of (previously female) activism is for another website.
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theanswerguy
Platinum
Reged: 04/12/07
Posts: 2267
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Fact is most men are not abused and are happy.
>>>>>>>>> Most women are not abused and also happy . It hasn't stopped a multitude of gender specific laws that benefit women exclusively .
It is much easier to convence guys that are vernrable that they are unhappy because of the system. Have you ever heard any advise other then to hate the system?
>>>>>>>>>>> Funny , gender feminists hate "the system" as well . BTW , NOW's stated goal for child custody is ALWAYS sole custody to the mother .
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Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right. Isaac Asimov
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