stoltz
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Powerful editorial ...
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/misandry_is_the_message/P0/
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The family on the sofa is divided, but not equally. On one side a sullen, rather menacing father stares defiantly at the camera; on the other, a waifish, stressed-looking mother is shielding anxious children. The message of the advertisement is one we have heard or seen innumerable times in the media: domestic violence is only perpetrated by men, who are by nature disposed to controlling behaviours, while women and children (an inseparable unit) are always innocent victims.
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Samsung
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Regretfully, it doesn't state what the facts are: Women abuse children at a 2 to 1 ratio when compared to men.
It's not that they are anymore violent then men; it's that they have most of the custodial time, thus it is a crime of opportunity.
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theanswerguy
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It's not that they are anymore violent then men; it's that they have most of the custodial time, thus it is a crime of opportunity.
>>>>>>>>>>> How would that apply to the 50% of parents that NEVER divorce ?
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Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right. Isaac Asimov
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Samsung
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A majority of abuse occurs with single parents. Also, a significant amount of abuse that happens to kids with married parents is done by both parents.
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theanswerguy
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A majority of abuse occurs with single parents.
>>>>>>>>> No .
Also, a significant amount of abuse that happens to kids with married parents is done by both parents.
>>>>>>>>> No .
From Child Maltreatment 2006 :
Living Arrangement of Victims
Data are incomplete for the living arrangement of victims. Slightly more than one-half of the States (28) reported on the living arrangement of victims during the alleged abuse or neglect. Among these 28 States, nearly 40.0 percent (37.3%) of the victims had unknown or missing data on living arrangement and were excluded from the analysis. Approximately 27 percent (26.7%) of victims were living with a single mother. Nearly 20 percent (19.7%) of victims were living with married parents, while approximately 22 percent of victims (21.6%) were living with both parents but the marital status was unknown. It is hoped that the reporting of this data element will improve in the coming years.
Victims by Relationship to Perpetrators
Nearly 83 percent (82.4%) of victims were abused by a parent acting alone or with another person. Approximately, 40 percent (39.9%) of child victims were maltreated by their mothers acting alone; another 17.6 percent were maltreated by their fathers acting alone; and 17.8 percent were abused by both parents.19 Victims abused by nonparental perpetrators accounted for 10.0 percent (figure 3-5). A nonparental perpetrator is defined as a caregiver who is not a parent and can include foster parent, child daycare staff, unmarried partner of parent, legal guardian, and residential facility staff.
The data for victims of specific maltreatment types were analyzed in terms of perpetrator relationship to the victim. Of the victims who experienced neglect, 86.7 percent were neglected by a parent. Of the victims who were sexually abused, 26.2 percent were abused by a parent and 29.1 percent were abused by a relative other than a parent.20
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Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right. Isaac Asimov
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Samsung
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My information was from another study, but the results were essentially the same. Women abused the kids at a 2/1 ratio compared to men (40/17.6, or 2.3 to 1 in your study). Both parents were involved in the child abuse in a significant number of cases (almost 1 out of 5 in both studies). In your study, nearly 40% were excluded due to incomplete information, which is too bad, as it makes the percentages potentally inacurate. As your study shows, only 20% reported abuse in a married home.
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KGrow
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Without regards to actual prevalence, I would assume abuse is reported much more vigorously in divorced situations. In fact, there are cases where abuse is reported where there is none.
With married parents, even if both are not involved in the abuse, you're much more likely to have one parent protecting the other by not reporting.
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stoltz
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Although I quoted the first paragraph of the editorial, the more important message that is being pumped into society is the same old adage:
men=bad / women=good
As the editorial says, "[...] misandry is ubiquitous in the media – and by media I mean all kinds: advertisements, sitcoms, films, political ads, TV talk shows, social service agency websites and billboards, and of course the punditocracy."
It's no wonder VAWA, VAWA II, and a bunch of other legislation was passed - all for one purpose: to "control" men, ALL men. This not only includes men WRT DV, but also when it comes to divorce situations - especially those involving children. Remember, "women and children ([are] an inseparable unit) [and] are always innocent victims."
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germangirl631
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Did you know that editorials are someone's opinion? They can spin their words to get whatever point across they want.
I agree to a point that men are basically bashed on TV. However, if it were the women getting bashed, women would probably just stop watching TV! I know I wouldn't watch any show that degrades women. But, men don't seem to mind watching shows that degrade men since the shows seem to stay on the air. What does that say?
Do men, in general, not care about their image as a gender?
Do women control the airwaves?
Do women stand up for what they believe in more than men?
Is our society messed up? (I'll answer that one - YES!!)
Do we have a lack of male role models in the media? (YES again)
Has the women's movement gone too far?
Are women more at risk from violent abuse at the hands of men than visa versa? (I'd say yes since men are physically stronger than women)
I'm not saying that there aren't women out there who abuse men. However, in my 45 years, I have never met one. I have met women who were abused by men, though. Several of them.
Maybe men don't seek the help they need so their cause isn't known. You'd need to start a forum for abused men to come to more of a consensus on that one. If you think there's a problem, stand up for it and your rights. Complaining here isn't going to get you noticed.
You'd need to go through political channels. media channels. Write to Oprah. Who knows? Take your message outside this forum.
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gigi
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You've NEVER known an abused man? I find that hard to believe. Ever know that family where everyone whispers about the guy being henpecked? And how do you knwo that you've met abused women? Becasue they TOLD You about it, right? NOT because you watched the guy beat her up. The reason you think you never met an abused man is that the men don't speak up and talk about it. The cause of abused men is as much in the dark ages as the cause of abused women was back in the 1950s, when women were instructed that it was their job to shut up & take it.
It takes REALLY knowing all the symptoms and asking the right questions, before you ever get a man to disclose to you that they were hit. And they often don't even take it seriously THEN. So don't assume that you've never met a man who was abused. You've just never met one who was going to admit it to you.
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stoltz
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Did you know that editorials are someone's opinion? They can spin their words to get whatever point across they want.
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So, you don't agree with this person's "opinion"?
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I agree to a point that men are basically bashed on TV.
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So, you agree with SOME of the person's opinion?
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However, if it were the women getting bashed, women would probably just stop watching TV!
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"You" may not, but you better believe that some women's rights group (and/or feminists) would be beating down the doors of both the Hollywood producer's office and the FCC DEMANDING the shows be "edited" as they portray a poisonous message.
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But, men don't seem to mind watching shows that degrade men since the shows seem to stay on the air. What does that say?
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SOME men don't. And it's usually men who are blinded by the fact and/or go along with it as they cannot (or will not) think for themselves to see that their denial (or complete abstinence) is the same as condoning the issue.
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I'm not saying that there aren't women out there who abuse men. However, in my 45 years, I have never met one. I have met women who were abused by men, though. Several of them.
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Maybe your definition of abuse is skewed (purposely or accidentally)? Most physical abuse is done in private, so the actual witnessing of the action is usually difficult. Other attributes come into play when there is physical abuse. For example, a woman may not like something a man said or did and slap him in the face. Whether or not this is on TV or not, the action is usually - as one of the commenters said - comical as best and condoned at worst. It must have been the man's fault. Never mind that it WAS physical abuse. What has happened is that our society has given separate limits to things like physical abuse when it comes to genders all because one is portrayed as being able to "take it" and the other "needing to protect" themselves. Politics has also intervened and has also shown to give similar limits as far as gender.
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You'd need to start a forum for abused men to come to more of a consensus on that one. If you think there's a problem, stand up for it and your rights. Complaining here isn't going to get you noticed.
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There are many more out there already, and if I had the resources to do so, yes, I would start one as well.
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You'd need to go through political channels. media channels. Write to Oprah. Who knows? Take your message outside this forum.
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Who says I haven't? Besides why should I take it out of a "Men's Rights" forum when it has everything to do with "Men's Rights" (especially when it comes to divorce/father's rights)? Maybe they should just remove this particular forum on the message board - is that what I'm hearing?
Actually, this kind of reminds me of those bulletin boards on the side of the road that have the words "DO BULLETIN BOARDS WORK? IT JUST DID."
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germangirl631
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[quote]You've NEVER known an abused man? The reason you think you never met an abused man is that the men don't speak up and talk about it.... So don't assume that you've never met a man who was abused. You've just never met one who was going to admit it to you. [/quote]
OK. So, now men are just shutting up and taking it? Well shame on them, then. They need to speak up to get the help they need! The women I know belong to a single parent's group I joined. We all share our issues, and one of them for a large majority of the women was abuse.
Abused men should also get the help they need. But, if they're not going to speak up, they're definitely not going to get ANY help.
I do know a man who was slapped by his wife. That is my stbx who was slapped by wife #1. When he told me about it, I thought how rude was she to slap him. But now I can see why she possibly might have crossed the line and done it. I'm not condoning it in any way. But I had many times I wanted to slap the sh!t out of him for the way he acted and treated me, but I didn't because that's not in my nature. Plus, I thought if I slapped him, he might hurt me back (like go to the hospital hurt) so I didn't temp fate. I have many holes in my walls and doors from that man. Thank God those blows weren't to MY body.
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gigi
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There's also the issue that in most families with two parents, the division of labor is such that the women are more often home alone with the kids, especially at a time when the kids are totally dependent, crying, whining, pooping machines that you really can't get a good escape from. And when they start creeping, crawling, toddling... it's worse... the attention that you've got to pay to them is constant.
Which is not an excuse for being more abusive... but an explanation of why women are more reported for child abuse... they're THERE more.
Now, if it turned out that women are the primary caregivers 60% of the time but commit 66% of the child abuse, then it looks like they are more violent towards kids... or if they're the primary caregivers 90% of the time (as often complained about here) and commit 66% of the child abuse, then it looks a LOT like maybe they're LESS violent, huh?
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germangirl631
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[quote]You'd need to start a forum for abused men to come to more of a consensus on that one. If you think there's a problem, stand up for it and your rights. Complaining here isn't going to get you noticed.
Who says I haven't? Besides why should I take it out of a "Men's Rights" forum when it has everything to do with "Men's Rights" (especially when it comes to divorce/father's rights)? Maybe they should just remove this particular forum on the message board - is that what I'm hearing?
[/quote]
No, I'm saying a whole new site for abused men. This is a divorce site. I do agree that men get the short end of the stick in many instances. And politics and government are pushing that agenda. But, Men need to stand up and get noticed for the issue. Not sit by and blindly let it happen to them. Women did that for too many years, and now we finally have some rights and support because we fought for them.
It's time for men to try to equalize those rights. It has all gone too far. But, it doesn't happen by itself. Someone has to get the ball rolling. That doesn't happen on a divorce site.
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stoltz
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That doesn't happen on a divorce site.
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Why not? Sometimes it isn't until a man goes through a divorce that their eyes are finally opened to the bias that exists in the court system and society itself. And sometimes even after they go through "the wringer" they still don't see it. However, once they see that other men are also experiencing it AND writing to tell about it, THEN it starts to sink in (for some - not all).
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chatter box
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[quote
However, once they see that other men are also experiencing it AND writing to tell about it, THEN it starts to sink in (for some - not all). [/quote]
Stoltz sounds like Jim Jones preaching that those had to be brought into inlightenment-socialism. Then talked everyone into drinking poison.
Fact is most men are not abused and are happy. It is much easier to convence guys that are vernrable that they are unhappy because of the system. Have you ever heard any advise other then to hate the system?
This might be a better sight for this http://www.menarebetterthanwomen.com/
Edited by chatter box (05/28/08 06:20 PM)
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theanswerguy
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Do men, in general, not care about their image as a gender?
>>>>>>>> No , men view other men as competition .
Do women control the airwaves?
>>>>>>>>> No , TV programs offer what the public desires , the current trend is men as ineffectual nothings or incompetant losers . No character like Archie Bunker would make the airwaves today but nobody bats an eyelash for a shrieking shrew like Roseanne . How many TV shows in the last 40 years have focused on divorced custodial mothers ? Ever seen one about a divorced custodial father ? Any programs about men with kids involve widowers or men that have visitation .
Do women stand up for what they believe in more than men?
>>>>>>>>> Yes but only in terms of gender specific causes , men donate more time and money to charity . Because of our paternalistic society , those causes usually benefit women exclusively . The feminists have it wrong , paternalism isn't a mechinism to hold women down but to protect them from the vagaries of fate .
Is our society messed up? (I'll answer that one - YES!!)
>>>>>>>>>> Yup , men are disenfranchised at an alarming rate . Look into any inner city and see the result .
Do we have a lack of male role models in the media? (YES again)
>>>>>>>>>>> Hardly . Blame the media for demonizing men and failed government social policies for making divorce economically feasible .
Has the women's movement gone too far?
>>>>>>>>>>> Only in creating generations of messed up kids . Boys with no male role modals to teach them to be men and girls that don't see the use of a father for their children .
Are women more at risk from violent abuse at the hands of men than visa versa? (I'd say yes since men are physically stronger than women)
>>>>>>>>> The cop out . It's true , some men are violent , many women are as well . The sad fact is most interpersonal violence is mutual . Women are being told it's ok , it's only abuse if HE does it .
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Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right. Isaac Asimov
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gigi
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I don't know. I agree that Stoltz has drunk the koolaid of a lot of blogs, but the issue of domestic violence is on this website as a separate forum even, but rarely do men even visit that group because ... well, men don't usually identify themselves as victims.
And the issue of unfair treatment of men is what has caused a whole bunch of wrong things to happen with kids that we've seen here. Your own daughter was initially placed with her wack-o, alienating, kidnapper mother... and though I don't remember the whole back story, I'd venture a guess that either you or the mother or the judge had that very sexist opinion that kids are better off with mothers in general and/or Dad's can't do the same job.
Unless we talk about it, it won't change.
I don't agree that the extremist talk littered with net-speak like VAWA and SCROTUM... (sic) is the way to impress anyone or get anyone's minds changed. The problem with that talk is that's it's GREAT among the guys who are already like minded... on their blogs & such... but it's a signal of someone who doesn't think beyond the extremist blogs and therefore is discounted by the general public.
Nevertheless... THIS article is not quite so peppered with extremist rhetoric. If only the discussions of it could remain as credible, then maybe we'd make some headway.
We do need to keep up the discussion, though...
What I worry about is a backlash when the pendulum swing sends it back in the pro-men position... to me, the goal would be to stop the pendulum from swinging quite so wildly and to let the way things go settle into a neutral position from which extreme situations will be properly recognized and dealt with, rather than either ignored or treated with extreme measures.
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EZmark
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"But, men don't seem to mind watching shows that degrade men since the shows seem to stay on the air. What does that say?"
It says men aren't important to the advetisers on those shows. The Neilsen research shows that women 24-48 are 90% of the viewership for the sitcoms and daytime shows. The evenings demographic is growing similarly as the evening programs become more female theme oriented. Almost all news producers, and increasing numbers (in many media groups the majority) of entertainment production and sales management is women. I'm not saying that women in management is bad, actually I think it is good, but you think you are so smart GG? The commercials are targeting YOU. You are just eyeballs and a wallet, a demographic. The content is being tweaked anti-male to please you. Are you being entertained? Are you buying the products?
When men begin to protest by not buying from those sponsers the content will begin to change. The sponsers will motivate the producers or pull their spots. That kind of (previously female) activism is for another website.
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theanswerguy
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Fact is most men are not abused and are happy.
>>>>>>>>> Most women are not abused and also happy . It hasn't stopped a multitude of gender specific laws that benefit women exclusively .
It is much easier to convence guys that are vernrable that they are unhappy because of the system. Have you ever heard any advise other then to hate the system?
>>>>>>>>>>> Funny , gender feminists hate "the system" as well . BTW , NOW's stated goal for child custody is ALWAYS sole custody to the mother .
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Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right. Isaac Asimov
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Samsung
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Posts: 2210
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"Funny , gender feminists hate "the system" as well . BTW , NOW's stated goal for child custody is ALWAYS sole custody to the mother."
Along that same line of general thinking, men and women's groups have very different goals in custody. Men's group look for equality, as in shared parenting. Women's groups look for sole custody. A man that get's shared custody considers it a victory. Women's group's view it as a loss, as sole was the goal. Perhaps more men should go for sole custody, so they can start "losing" with shared custody.
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germangirl631
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[quote]I'm not saying that women in management is bad, actually I think it is good, but you think you are so smart GG? The commercials are targeting YOU. You are just eyeballs and a wallet, a demographic. The content is being tweaked anti-male to please you. Are you being entertained? Are you buying the products? [/quote]
I don't ever think I said I was smart. Initiating dialogue and being smart are two different things. Can't a person have a discussion without being "smart" in the smart-ass way?
And, I rarely watch TV. I spend within my means. I would rather read a good book than watch the junk on TV.
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KGrow
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[quote]BTW, NOW's stated goal for child custody is ALWAYS sole custody to the mother.[/quote]
Do you have a citation? What the hell are they thinking?
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germangirl631
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[quote] Ever seen one about a divorced custodial father ? [/quote]
I will agree that most shows about a Dad raising kids are either widowers, or custodial visits, but here are a few that you might remember that have single/divorced dads actually raising their kids and dealing with life issues.
The courtship of Eddie's father
Family Affair
Two and a half men
Veronica Mars
Gossip Girl
I'll fly away
The power puff girls
Angel
The Tracey Ullman show
Baywatch
Love Boat (captain has little girl Vicki)
Alvin & the chipmunks (shows a male in the head of household position with 3 "kids" and how they cope)
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EZmark
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Wow you're right! I learned most of my coping skills from the Chipmunks! What a cultural shame the Chipmunks, and especially Baywatch have been off the air for thirty years or so. And Baywatch being about a single dad coping, did you mean copulating? TFTL I needed that.
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stoltz
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Posts: 1493
Loc: Texas
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I agree that Stoltz has drunk the koolaid of a lot of blogs
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I have? Please elaborate. I definitely want to hear this answer. BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer to a question I posed to you on a separate thread in this forum, too. You like to make a lot of (false) allegations about me, but when the rubber meets the road, you are nowhere to be found to back up your claims. Have I visited pro-Men's Rights blogs? Certainly. But to paint such a broad stroke by alluding that my ideology is built in whole on the blogs is asinine.
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I don't agree that the extremist talk littered with net-speak like VAWA and SCROTUM... (sic)
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SCROTUM? I certainly hope the [sic] reference is to your invalid acronym. If not, please tell me where I used it before. SCOTUS (which IS the official acronym for the Supreme Court of the United States) - yes. SCROTUM - no.
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What I worry about is a backlash when the pendulum swing sends it back in the pro-men position... to me, the goal would be to stop the pendulum from swinging quite so wildly and to let the way things go settle into a neutral position from which extreme situations will be properly recognized and dealt with, rather than either ignored or treated with extreme measures.
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My God, my God. We actually agree on something after all.
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stoltz
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Reged: 01/29/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: Texas
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Stoltz sounds like Jim Jones preaching that those had to be brought into inlightenment-socialism. Then talked everyone into drinking poison.
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On the contrary, I'm just giving PEOPLE (men and women) another perspective of seeing things. It is up to them to take the information and do what they want from it. If anyone, you should point your venomous accusations towards the government and corporations.
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Fact is most men are not abused and are happy.
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I agree. It's called a false sense of security. Men ARE (in a general sense) happy until as such time as something happens to them, like living what they think is a happy marriage only to have their wife cheat, then divorce them, then take half their assets and ALL of their children, and hope to God they don't accuse you of sexual molestation, etc., along the way.
Of course, yours didn't turn out that way, therefore, that side doesn't really exist.
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chatter box
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Posts: 1304
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[quote]--------------------------------------------------------------
Stoltz sounds like Jim Jones preaching that those had to be brought into inlightenment-socialism. Then talked everyone into drinking poison.
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On the contrary, I'm just giving PEOPLE (men and women) another perspective of seeing things. It is up to them to take the information and do what they want from it. If anyone, you should point your venomous accusations towards the government and corporations.
Jim told all his fallower the same thing. It was up to them to decide.
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Fact is most men are not abused and are happy.
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I agree. It's called a false sense of security. Men ARE (in a general sense) happy until as such time as something happens to them
[/quote]
Kinda like all those pro foot ball players. They just think there are happy playing football for a living. Trueth is after they retire they will spend a life of pain and suffering from enjories. What's life without risk?
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stoltz
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Kinda like all those pro foot ball players. They just think there are happy playing football for a living. Trueth [sic] is after they retire they will spend a life of pain and suffering from enjories [sic]. What's life without risk?
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Sorry, I cannot concur with this anaology at all. With pro football players, they KNOW there is a risk that they could end up with a lifetime of injuries or even something worse, like paralysis. The difference is that many men may know they can be "injured" WRT divorce, but haven't a clue as to the extent of the "damages" they can endure with a justice system that already gives their opposition an unfair advantage. Heck, leave marriage and divorce out of it altogether ... As evidenced by many court cases, all it can take is a woman calling the police and ACCUSE a man of something heinous to ruin his life, irrespective of the validity of her accusations.
I read one case a while back where a woman and man were in a car and had a disagreement. They pulled off the side of the road and continued the verbal argument. A passerby witnessed the incident and called 911. Due to anti-male legislation passed, the officer who arrived at the scene HAD to arrest one of the two. Of course, it was the man. The man's life was never the same afterward, and even the woman admitted the whole thing was blown way out of proportion. The man was put on probation and now if ANYONE calls the police and accuses him of almost anything, he will be arrested on the spot and sent to jail.
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