chatter box
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DEFINITION
The present section provides a beginning definition of the Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome, which has been derived from clinical and legal cases. As in all initial proposals, it is anticipated that future research will lead to greater refinement in the taxonomic criteria. The proposed definition encompasses four major criteria, as follows:
A mother who unjustifiably punishes her divorcing or divorced husband by:
Attempting to alienate their mutual child(ren) from the father Involving others in malicious actions against the father Engaging in excessive litigation
The mother specifically attempts to deny her child(ren):
Regular uninterrupted visitation with the father Uninhibited telephone access to the father paternal participation in the child(ren)'s school life and extra-curricular activities
Tile pattern is pervasive and includes malicious acts towards the husband including:
Lying to the children Lying to others Violations of law
The disorder is not specifically due to another mental disorder although a separate mental disorder may co-exist.
I just wanted to bring some attention to this. Has anyone else delt with this?
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mistake#2
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No, but I'm a mother...is there any syndrome named for fathers who refuse to follow court orders, abuse the children when they are in his custody, put his needs ahead of their children and alternate between either not calling for months or calling obsessively when they want to prove something? Even if there isn't a name for it, I'd say that both are selfish a$$holes.
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gigi
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I'd call it divorce related malicious parenting syndrome rather than mothering... And yes, I've seen it/dealt with it.
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chatter box
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Gigi is right that is the political way to say it.
I'm sure fathers do it also but mom have a high percentage if only because in more case they have the oppertunity more often. This isn't just parents being bitter and mean for a few months.
CLINICAL ILLUSTRATIONS
In this section, I will provide clinical illustrations for each criterion using the reference numbers provided above. As criteria 1-3 are behavior specific to the Malicious Mother Syndrome, I will provide a series of clinical examples. The fourth criterion which addresses the relationship of the proposed syndrome to other mental disorders, will be discussed more generally.
Criterion 1A: Alienating the Children
The range of actions taken by a mother to attempt to alienate her children from their father is impressive. For example:
One mother lied to her children that she could no longer buy food because their father had spent all of their money on women at topless bars.
A doctor's wife forced her 10 year old son to apply for federally funded free school lunches to delude the boy that his "daddy has made us poor."
A woman who for years was very close to the children in a custody battle, was asked by their mother to give up neutrality and join her campaign against the father to "dance on his grave." When the friend refused to give up her neutrality, the mother falsely informed her children that their father was having an affair with this woman.
These behaviors, if successful, could lead a child to not only hate the father but perhaps go years without seeing him. As Cartwright (1993) has noted: "The goal of the alienator is crystalline: to deprive the lost parent, not only of the child's time, but of the time of childhood" (p. 210).
Criterion 1B: Involving Others in Malicious Actions
The second component of the first major criterion where the mother attempts to punish the husband, involves manipulating other individuals to engage in malicious acts against the father. Examples of this kind are as follows:
During a custody battle, a mother lied to a therapist about the father's behaviour. The therapist, having never spoken with the father, appeared as an "expert" witness to inform the Judge that the mother should be the primary residential parent and that the father needed to be in therapy.
One angry mother manipulated teenagers to leave anonymous threatening notes at the ex-husband's home.
A mother who had lost legal custody of her child, manipulated a secretary at the child's school to assist in kidnapping the child.
In the above examples, it is important to note that the person manipulated by the angry mother has, in a way, been "alienated" against the divorcing husband. Typically, the individual "duped" takes on a righteous indignation, contributing to a rewarding climate for the mother initiating malicious actions.
Criterion 1C: Excessive Litigation
There is little question that either party in a divorce or custody proceeding is entitled to appropriate legal representation and action. Individuals suffering from Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome, however, attempt to punish the divorcing husband by engaging in excessive litigation.
A belligerent and unreasonable mother verbally attacked her ex-husband whenever she saw him. Over time, his response was to ignore her. She then took him to court, asking the judge to require the ex-husband to talk with her.
One mother told a judge that her daughter was not really her divorcing husband's child.
One woman refused to stop attacking her ex-husband through the courts despite numerous attorneys being fired or voluntarily leaving the case. Over a three year period, seven different attorneys were utilized.
Data exist which can help in determining the range of excessive litigation. For example, Keel et al. (1988) report on the frequency of post-divorce litigation in a sample of 700 families. Their data indicate that only 12.7% of families file one post-divorce petition to the court, whereas less than 5% file two or more petitions (Keel at al. 1988); less than 1% file four or more petitions.
Criterion 2A: Denying Regular Visitation
Experts are in relative agreement that regular and uninterrupted visitation with the non-residential parent is desirable and beneficial for children, except in extreme circumstances (Hedges, 1991). In fact, some states, such as Florida, have laws written to reflect this view (Keane, 1990). Unfortunately, even when the father and children have legal rights to visitation, individuals with Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome continue to interfere with it.
A mother who previously attacked her ex-husband physically during visitation transfers of the children, refused to provide the children when the ex-husband had the police attend to monitor exchanges.
When one divorced father arrived to pick up his children for visitation, the mother arranged for her and the children to be elsewhere so that the father could not visit with the children.
One mother had her physically intimidating boyfriend assault her ex-husband when he came to pick up his children for visitation.
The President of The Council for Children's Rights (Washington, D.C.) notes that such alienation is considered a form of child abuse (Levy, 1992). Unfortunately, the police typically avoid involving themselves in such situations. Furthermore, unless a victimized father is financially capable of returning to court on an ongoing basis, there is little that can be done to prevent such mothers' behavior. Finally, even when such cases are brought to trial, the courts are often inadequate in supporting fathers' visitation rights (Commission on Gender Bias in the Judicial System, 1992).
Criterion 2B: Denying Uninhibited Telephone Access
Given the physical absence of one parent, the telephone plays an important role in maintaining the bond between child and non-residential parent. Individuals suffering from Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome engage in an array of actions designed to circumvent telephone access.
A father called to speak to his children and was told that they were not at home when in bet he could hear their voices in the background.
When one father called to speak with his children, the mother put him on "hold," informed no one, and then left him there.
Knowing that the children's father was away on vacation, one mother encouraged them to leave several messages on his answering machine to call back immediately only if he would like some additional visitation time with his children.
Some fathers find the alienation attempts so painful and fruitless that they eventually are extinguished from calling their children; they simply "give up." Placed in a no-win scenario, the father's "abandonment" (Hedges, 1991) unfortunately achieves the precise result aimed for by the individual suffering from Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome.
Criterion 2C: Denying Participation in Extra-Curricular Activities
An integral part of the process of maintaining one's bond with one's child is to participate in activities that one did before the parents separated. School plays, team sports, and religious events are just some of the types of activities of importance. Malicious Mothers frequently engage in maneuvers designed to prevent participation in these activities.
One father was deliberately given the wrong date and time for an important event for the child. The child was asked by the mother, "I wonder why your father didn't want to come to see you today"?
One mother refused to provide the father with any information about any extra-curricular activities in which the children were engaged.
Prior to a child's soccer game, one mother told many of the team parents disparaging falsehoods about the visiting lather. When he came to watch his son's soccer game, many of these parents looked at him with angry eyes, refused to talk with him, and walked away when he moved toward them.
Malicious Mothers who engage in such behaviors rarely have to face penalties for such actions. Judges, attorneys, and policemen cannot involve themselves in every instance of blocked paternal access. Furthermore, most fathers cannot afford the financial requirements involved. As such, the cycle of access interference perpetuates itself.
Criterion 3A: Malicious Lying to the Children
Given their developmental status, children in a disputed divorce situation are quite vulnerable. When one parent decides to attack the other by lying to the children, examples of this type of malicious behavior may include some of the following.
One divorcing mother told her very young daughter that her father was "not really" her father even though he was.
An eight year old girl was forced by her mother to hand unpaid bills to her lather when he visited because the mother had falsely told the daughter that the father had not provided any economic means of support to the family.
One mother falsely told her children that their father had repeatedly beat her up in the past.
These examples of malicious lying can be contrasted with the more subtle maneuvers typically seen in Parental Alienation Syndrome, such as "virtual allegations" (Cartwright, 1993). Here, the mother setting up a Parental Alienation Syndrome may hint that abuse may have occurred, whereas the individual suffering from Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome falsely claims that abuse has actually occurred.
Criterion 3B: Malicious Lying to Others
Individuals suffering from Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome may engage a wide range of other individuals in their attacks upon the ex-husband. However, with this particular criterion, the individual with Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome specifically lies to other individuals in the belligerency against the father. Some examples include the following.
One furious mother called the president of the (1500 employee) workplace of her divorcing husband, claiming falsely that he was using business property for personal gain and was abusing their mutual children at his work locale.
One woman falsely told slate officials that her ex-husband was sexually abusing their daughter. The child was immediately taken away from him and his access to her was denied.
During the course of a custody dispute, one mother falsely informed the guardian, who was investigating the parenting skills of each parent, that the father had physically abused her.
Snyder (1986) has reported on the difficulty imposed upon legal authorities when confronted with someone who is an excellent liar. Consistent with research on the inability of "specialists" to detect lying (Ekman and O'Sullivan, 1991), a skilled fabricator can be a compelling witness in the courtroom (Snyder, 1986). While sometimes seen in borderline personalities, Snyder (1986) notes that pathological lying (Pseudologia Fantastica) is not restricted to that particular character disorder.
Criterion 3C: Violating Law to Attack the Husband
Individuals suffering from Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome have few if any boundaries in their campaign against the divorcing husband. Violations of law are common in many cases, although the laws broken may be relatively minor. However, in some cases, the violations of law may be quite serious.
One woman deliberately drove her automobile into the house of her ex-husband where their mutual children resided.
In the midst of a custody battle, one woman broke into the residence of her divorcing husband and stole important business papers.
An angry divorcing mother called a Christian evangelical television station and pledged $1000, giving the name, address, and phone number of her divorcing Jewish husband as the pledgee.
The above descriptions may remind the reader of certain personality disorders (e.g., antisocial, borderline, sadistic) but these behaviors may be demonstrated by individuals with Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome who do not appear to meet official diagnostic criteria for an Axis II disorder. Further, in each of the four examples provided above, none of the Malicious Mothers involved was sentenced for such behavior by a Judge.
Criterion 4: Not Due to Another Disorder
In assessing the Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome, it is important to note that many of the above clinical examples seem to have occurred in individuals who had no prior mental disorder diagnosis or treatment. In fact, one mother who engaged in extreme maliciousness toward her divorcing husband had several mental health professionals testify that she was not suffering from any type of mental disorder. Clearly, it would seem that individuals who have Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome may or may not have a concomitant mental disorder.
In the author's experience, for each mental disorder that might come to mind to account for some of this behavior, an exceptional case presents. For example, in some cases an Adjustment Disorder might seem an appropriate diagnosis, yet one woman still denied her ex-husband visitation 10 years after the divorce. Other cases might suggest a possibility of a personality disorder diagnosis, yet one woman who repeatedly violated the law in attacking her ex-husband, received no personality disorder diagnosis despite being evaluated by masters level and doctoral level examiners. In some instances, Intermittent Explosive Disorder might be considered, yet the anger for many of the mothers does not appear to be intermittent.
Finally, the reader should appreciate that while diagnostic accuracy for certain psychiatric difficulties is not as good as one would like (e.g., the personality disorders, see Turkat, 1990), the problem is compounded in family law where incompetent mental health examiners sometimes become involved in the judicial process (Turkat, 195)3). Clearly, the relationship between Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome and other mental disorders is a complex one which requires significant investigation.
DISCUSSION
The above description of the Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome raises a variety of important clinical, legal, and scientific issues.
From a clinical perspective, families that involve a Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome are subject to serious episodes of stress and distress. Yet, there is no scientific evidence on how to treat this phenomenon. It is particularly compromised by the fact that many of these cases that appear to meet the proposed diagnostic criteria deny that there is anything wrong with them.
An additional difficulty is that many therapists are unaware of this pattern of malicious behavior (Heinz and Heinz, 1993). As such, there are therapists who are "fooled" by such cases and, as noted earlier, will come to court testifying that there is nothing wrong with the mother involved.
From a legal perspective, there are some attorneys who may unintentionally encourage this type of behavior (Gardner, 1989). On the other hand, there are some attorneys who deliberately encourage such behavior, as the financial rewards for them are time dependent. In other words, the more involved the litigation process, the greater the profits for the attorney (Grotman and Thomas, 1990). However, even for the subset of attorneys for whom this may be true, there is a point of diminishing returns. Furthermore, independent of economic considerations, many who become involved with family law courtrooms find that these types of cases are not handled well (Greif, 1985; Levy, 1992).
The woman who is not disturbed "enough" to lose custody of her children in the courtroom will not have money denied to her because she engages in this behavior; nor will she go to jail. Thus, many clients report significant frustration when they and their children are exposed to this type of behavior, and the courts seem to do little if anything about.
In a review of pertinent law literature on bias against men in family law proceedings, Tillitski (1992) concluded that there is widespread discrimination. This is well illustrated by one family law Judge's statement that, "I ain't never seen the calves follow the bulls, they always follow the cow; therefore, I always give custody to the mamas" (Commission on Gender Bias in the Judicial System, 1992 p. 742). Similarly, it is noted that visitation rights of fathers are not enforced as rigidly as are child support orders (Commission on Gender Bias in the Judicial System, 1992). Such bias against men in family law proceedings results in a unique group of fathers who unintentionally become relatively helpless victims of the system (Tillitski, 1992). This situation would seem to reinforce much of the vicious behavior displayed by women suffering from Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome.
The issue of sex distribution of the disorder certainly needs to be addressed. The overwhelming majority of custodial parents are female (Commission on Gender Bias in the Judicial System, 1992). Gardner (1989) has noted that Parental Alienation Syndrome appears most commonly in females, although it is possible for a male who has custody of the children to engage in the same type of alienating behaviors. The author's experience with Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome is similar to Gardner's. However, the present writer has yet to see a case of a father engaging in all of the criteria listed. This does not mean that it is not possible for there to be a "Malicious Father" Syndrome. In fact, Shepard (1992) reports that there is significant abuse of some custodial mothers by non-residential fathers. On the other hand, it should be noted that there are females who are required to pay chiltl support, but we have yet to heara about "Deadbeat Moms." Given at the present time that a case in which the father met all of the criteria for Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syntlrome has yet to be documented, it appears advisable to await scientific evidence to guide issues of nosologic labeling.
How prevalent is the Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome? The answer is unknown. Gardner (1989) reports that approximately 90% of all custody battles involve some aspects of parental alienation. Further, Kressel (1985) reviewed data indicating that up to 40% of maternal custodians denied visitation to the ex-husband in order to punish him. Relatedly, Arditti (1992) reported that 50% of a sample of divorced fathers (N = 125) indicated that visitation was interfered with by the mother. While aspects of parental alienation may be common, it is highly unlikely that such a percentage of maternal custodians would meet all of the criteria for Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome.
In regard to incidence, it would appear through the title of this syndrome that the malicious behavior is precipitated by the divorce process.
However, this is clearly an empirical question. While the malicious actions may first be noted during a divorce process, it is possible that maliciousness may have been present earlier but undetected. Research on pre-divorce parental conflict (Enos and Handal, 1986) supports this speculation. Relatedly, it may also be that there are some cases of pre-existing mental disorder that have not been discovered until the stress of the divorce itself unfolds.
Finally, it should be noted that research on the nature of post-divorce family functioning is beginning to emerge. Some data exist on the role of parental conflict in children's postdivorce functioning (e.g., Frost and Pakiz, 1990; Furstenberg et al., 1987; Healy, Malley and Stewart, 1990; Kudek, 1988), but studies have yet to appear on the more extreme cases of Parental Alienation Syndrome and Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome.
The Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome represents an important societal phenomenon. The disorder affects children, parents, attorneys, judges, guardians, mental health professionals, and others. Until this phenomenon is explored more thoroughly in the scientific and clinical literature, the problems imposed by individuals suffering from Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome will continue to plague us. Hopefully, the present manuscript will stimulate research so that clinical and legal management guidelines can be developed.
This isn't my case but you could change just a few things and you would have almost an exact copy down to the kidnapping.
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gigi
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Chatter Box, I certainly have seen this. Almost every issue, including kidnapping (though it was really a series of vacations that she took in violation of court orders with the intent of bribing the kids to want to stay with her. They returned with interestingly coordinated stories about which 2 hours a week they were willing to find in thier busy schedules for thier dad if they were forced to find some time with him.) And your'e right, it's NOT something that happens just a few weeks & is gone... we're working on 3 years here. Most outrageous recent event is to let the kids know that they can't drive their car if they see their Dad, but if they ditch him for the weekend they're allowed to do whatever they want, with the car if they want, overnight parties with friends if they want, etc., etc.
It just keeps going & going & going.
But I dont' know that it's divorce related for her. my husband says she was marginalizing him in the kids' lives well before the split, possibly in anticipation of the split, but certainly because she really just thought of him as a wallet/servant who she had to ENDURE in her life in order that the mortgage would be paid... and she was QUITE offended at having to endure his presence, because he was such an offensive person, wanting to have the kids do things that were not fun, like study & chores & things like that...
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EZmark
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I deal with it every day. I doesn't hurt me personally anymore, but I still go through short periods of anger. In my case it's combined with severe narcissism so she has no care whatsoever for the hurt she causes the children, that still drives me to tears. Sometimes I think it's just being for control, I can't see anything else she has to gain. The indignant anger that mistake#2 displays is exactly these type of women's reaction whenever confronted with proof of her outrageoeous behavior. Also the both are to blame he-said she said Mistake employs is typical. They lie and do evil when confronted turn everything around on you. I hate troublemakers. It would be interesting to find out how many women feel entitled to do this, a majority wouldn't surprise me with the cultural and legal encouragement, the judges aren't concerned with such minor issues, I probably should have saved the effort and money to fight for the kids, it took a toll and cost me everything and left me in never ending debt and none of it mattered. I suspect Mistake made her bed and now finds it uncomfortable, so immediately blame anyone else...also atypical of MMS.
The only way I know to fight it is to stay in contact with the kids, refute her lies immediately, and reassure them of your unconditional love. And there's no garuntee that works either, time will tell. As my recent post illustrates, kids will love their mom even if she kills their dad, especially if mom is given custody ie:opportunity to brainwash.
Eg: The kids tell me they hear their mother talking to their friends parents about me. She grills them about any kids that have been over my house. She can't get to the ones in my neighborhood, but the other day my daughter wanted her friend from school to visit while at my house. Her friend said she was afraid that I might shoot her, she wasn't allowed to visit. I drove daughter to the frends house, not invited in. When dropped off the friend refused to speak to me. I asked the parent why her kid told mine she was afraid. Parent said they "heard things" and had a talk with their kid about guns, touching, etc. Their daughter also is a liar and manipulator according to my kid, she can take her or leave her, but she does not like to hear bad lies about her dad. Now I'm afraid to be without a witness around her daughter for fear of her lying if I won't allow something or whatever. So better friends for my daughter are in order, but I am only around EOW and malicious mother will take her there and fill them with poison. This is the fourth person this has happenned with. They have cried for ninety minutes that mom is ruining their life, but they have to return to her jurisdiction and stay on script. FYI the people who acually know me have left their kids for sleepovers and canoeing, waterpark and other outings. Yeah, I deal with it every day.
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theanswerguy
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Perhaps " the system " has a few flaws for allowing these oviously disturbed people custody in the first place .
-------------------- Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right. Isaac Asimov
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Jada
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You said:
I'm sure fathers do it also but mom have a high percentage if only because in more case they have the oppertunity more often. This isn't just parents being bitter and mean for a few months.
My response:
One doesn't have to have custody or have the kids most of the time to be malicious.
My mom had custody, she never spoke bad about my father. My father, on the other hand, always spoke bad about my mom.
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chatter box
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This isn't just bad mouthing someone. There is a lot more to it then that. It is activily hurting someone mentally for the joy of it. In my case it's like my X had post partum depression (lack of attention after the baby got older) but then found new ways to get attention by attacking me. she craves the attention. she actually demanded from a sherriff once that I be surved papers at at T-ball game in front of all the other parents and her whole family showed up to watch. Things like that. You dad may have bad mounthed your mom but did he drag her into court 13 times and half of them the judge just ended the session?
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chatter box
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[quote]Perhaps " the system " has a few flaws for allowing these oviously disturbed people custody in the first place . [/quote]
The problem is that most states do not recognize this as a mental problem and there are no test to diagnose this, so even if you do prove it there are no laws to address it as a whole.
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KGrow
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Perhaps the bigger problem is that these people got to where they are by becoming masters of manipulation and there is no system immune to manipulation.
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EZmark
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I was waiting for your rationalizations and justifications. Your earlier post that claimed PAS is a ploy for men to avoid paying CS.
PAS is an overwhelmingly female phenomenon, read the statistics for yourself. It is becoming recognized as the overwhelming amount of documentation get compiled. It may even happen to some extent in over 50% of the divorces, by the Malicious Mother. The fact that some men do it to does not lessen the evil or serousness of the problem among women.
"The problem is that most states do not recognize this as a mental problem and there are no test to diagnose this, so even if you do prove it there are no laws to address it as a whole."
CB is right. I understand the exasperation of having to deal with the reality of sanctioned evil, it changes you unless you are that kind of person yourself. And even if it was diagnosed, a psyc doctor testifying or submitting a report, the only releif you could be asking for is increased custody or punsihment of her behavior, motions routinely denied to fathter's without showing imminent physical danger. In my case the judge said "these kinds of things are to be expected in situations like this".
Alienation "To be expected"?
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stoltz
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============================================================== No, but I'm a mother...is there any syndrome named for fathers who refuse to follow court orders, abuse the children when they are in his custody, put his needs ahead of their children and alternate between either not calling for months or calling obsessively when they want to prove something? ============================================================
Not sure the scientific/legal term, but as far as courts, government, and society are concerned these people are called "fathers".
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gigi
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Even when you have a psychologist confirming that the parent is trying to accomplish PAS (whether or not successful), it is nearly impossible to get the kids away from that person. The courts these days want to go with what the mother wants first, unless the kids are very vocal, in which case they'll go with what the kids want. There's some theory out there that the kids will not do well with a parent they've been alienated from.
In our case, it was not just bad-mouthing my husband to the kids. It's bad-mouthing him to her family, the neighbor, the kid's friends' parents to the point where the kids are terrified to invite their friends to spend time at thier Dad's house... and somehow, their Dad's HOUSE... because apparently this location is the cause of all evil in their eyes (they KNOW HE is not evil, so she's somehow convinced them that it's OK if we take them shopping, or out to dinner, or to a sporting event or movie or vacation, but spending an overnight at our house seems to be the cause of huge concern for them, to the point where they're nearly panicked on some days when they're supposed to be here... and we're in one of the nicest neighborhoods in the city, not ALL millionaires like she's in, but close, and with a better school).
And then there is the things she does actively to punish them... such as not allowing them to drive the car if they come to see us (I think this is another thing she's convinced them of on some objection to our neighborhood) ... but thier brother is allowed to drive the car if he comes to pick them up because she's decided it's too inconvenient for her to do so.
And then there's the situation of having them missing when we go to pick them up for our parenting time with them... simply not present at the house and she convinces them that we're unreasonable for not wanting to wait an unspecified amount of time for her to get everyone back hom from whatever trip she's taken them on.
Or the times she books them for EXTRA events to take place on OUR weekends. NOT just their ordinary stuff, which we take them to, but extra stuff... stuff SHE will be taking them to.
At one point she told the kids I was an alcoholic (she doesn't even know me) and they should never get in the car with me. She was reprimanded for that, but no one ever told the KIDS that waht she said was improper or that her order to them was inappropriate.
It's not simply trash talk. It's the intended result of the trash talk to have the children disapprove of the other parent, his activities, his home, spouse, job, discipline... even the toys in our house aren't acceptible because when he left, she convinced him that if he allowed her to keep them all, he could start from scratch and get new things that they'd like better. Then she told him waht kind of things to buy. THEN she told the kids that he didn't get them ENOUGH stuff and so it proved that he didn't love them enough.
And when you've only got a few hours of time with the kids in any given week (because she organized their schedules to keep them too busy to talk during the weekends), it's tough to counteract this through example. And it's more impossible when you realize that the non-alienating parent is trying to do the RIGHT thing and not fight dirty (not put the kids in the middle of world war three... not to mention that if the alienation has worked, it's useless for the other parent to do the same things as the alienating parent has done).
It's not just talk. It's actively preventing them from spending the allotted time with us. And the first year, we spent $300 per session to go in about once a month and have her slapped on the wrist by a mediator for all the wrong things she'd done THAT month. She'd stop doing THOSE things for THOSE excuses and come up with a whole new set of stuff the next month.
OK... and for Jada's situation and other adults who have grown up and for some reason think thier fathers who they spent very little time with are the ones who engaged in the alienating things... has it ever occurred to you that perhaps what was going on behind the scenes with your mother was that she was doing alienating things to you and your father that caused you to spend less time with you... caused him to try to fight fire with fire and say mean things about her? Is it possible that some of what she was doing with booking you for events and activities were contrary to what the visitation plan needed to be?
I mean, I don't know, but you sure have some anger towards your dad and ... well, there just aren't that many bad dads out there are there are adult children who are angry at their non-custodial fathers.
We see it all over the place... and every once in a while, we see a more realistic portrayal of it in the media... I'm thinking of the series Gray's Anatomy, where we see the title character, as an adult, totally estranged from her father. Over the years, in the little vignettes we've seen about her parents, it turns out that her mother had an affair and kicked her father out. That she actively alienated the child from him at the same time as she was demanding full custody, continuing the affair with a married colleague, being a very firm and often nasty parent and talented but cold-hearted doctor... and tried to kill herself in front of her daughter when the affair didn't work out.
In the meantime, the father had been entirely cut from the child's life. When he returns as an adult after the mother becomes incapacitated from Alzheimers... he has a new wife and child. He does not appear to be the monster that the title character had been trained to believe, but she has a lot of suspicion, is entirely incapable of believing he's not evil. She sees his current wife and daughter acting as a nice, normal family, trying to accept her as the previous daughter, being loving and decent to each other (in vignettes that she apparnetly never experienced with her mother)... And she can NOT accept that they are nto evil.
This persists even through her own father's illness and death.
When you see him, it's obvious he worries about her, loves her, and regrets leaving her to that controlling, overbearing mother that he left when she was having the affair. You can see that he regrets not fighting for custody... or not fighting harder. But WE all know ... who have been the object of PAS and who have tried to fight it in court... that his decision to give up the fight was made in good faith that hopefully nothing awful would happen to the kid.
But when you look at her as an adult... she's a brilliant surgeon but a horrifyingly damaged human being.
Sad... but it's not such an odd situation... odd that the kid would grow up to be a brilliant surgeon maybe... odd that she'd have a reunion of sorts with her fahter and WATCH as he did not sprout horns & hooves... but it's not an odd situation. When we hear people like JAda talk about how thier mother never did a thing bad towards her father but her father couldn't do a nice thing towards her mother... well... it makes me wonde rwhat the story would be if we really talked to both of HER parents.
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chatter box
Platinum
 
Reged: 11/09/07
Posts: 1304
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[quote]Perhaps the bigger problem is that these people got to where they are by becoming masters of manipulation and there is no system immune to manipulation. [/quote]
I could deal with the manipulations, but its the manipulations to attack me with no regaurd to my duaghter or others.
Even though I have custody it isn't any easier for me.
Gigi like you said the malicous mother uses other people to fullfill there needs. My X got my phone list when she lift and called every single one of my friends and buisness contact just to bad mouth me and then tried to get work from most of them. Most of them I knew most of my life and new better.
Its more like she loves the attention from acting like she is the victim. I also think that the first half dozen times we were in court only fueled her desire.
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EZmark
Platinum

Reged: 06/04/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Florida
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"Or the times she books them for EXTRA events to take place on OUR weekends. NOT just their ordinary stuff, which we take them to, but extra stuff... stuff SHE will be taking them to. "
>Yep, and then if you can't facilitate the kids on her plan (which often involve her), or don't want to give up your precious little time with them, or have other plans she convinces them you've let them down. Sometimes I don't even find out until the last moment. She sets up the kids to be disappointed, and then me to be the dissappointer, and then innocently explains how she will make it up to them. Evil manipulative troublemaker!
"who have been the object of PAS and who have tried to fight it in court... that his decision to give up the fight was made in good faith that hopefully nothing awful would happen to the kid."
>I had to give up because I had no more money for attorneys, no more time or I'd lose my job, and nothing seemed to matter to the judge anyway, except how much I could give the unemployed POS. I have faith that the kids will NOT be better off from it, I can only hope and pray something awful doesn't come of it. I can understand how some fathers turn from the pain and their children dealing with women like this, sometimes I wish I could.
Gigi your husband is very lucky to have such a decent person as you in his life and I really feel sorry for you having to deal with the witch you never even married! He sounds like a good person too so I hope you are filled with enough happiness to withstand the evil.
CB I've noticed that my MM thrives on conflict and confusion, then they get to be the great savior straightening things out for the kids. Kind of like a fireman that starts fires, much worse than an arsonist. Since I will only accept non emergency communication from her in written form it has decreased her attack ability and frequency.
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chatter box
Platinum
 
Reged: 11/09/07
Posts: 1304
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[quotemy MM thrives on conflict and confusion, then they get to be the great savior straightening things out for the kids. Kind of like a fireman that starts fires, much worse than an arsonist. [/quote]
Your right. I think it is more like the fireman that is the arsonist that puts out there own fires.
The amount of time, energy and money that it takes is unreal. God bless Gigi and my wife for what they do.
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