gigi
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Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5138
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[quote]Not to ignore your response, but I was listening on the AM radio this am. The show is basically a run-of-the-mill news show. The discussion at hand had nothing whatsoever to do with divorce, custody, support, etc. I can;t recall if it was one of the DJ's, a guest, or someone calling in, but a guy basically said he had the "average rural Texas" values and if could do nothing else, he'd bring all the fathers who are behind on child support to the town square and "hang 'em all." He didn't have an angry tone and I guess he just had some beef about it from something he's read (or maybe has a female relative who isn't getting CS), but it REALLY made me think of just how out-of-touch a lot of people - EVEN MEN - are about the whole child support issue. Yes, there probably ARE *MEN* (notice it was "MEN" and not people) who have the means to pay CS but purposely don't. But that's a VERY, VERY small percentage of not only divorced fathers, but of men who are behind, period.
A'las, such a long way to go.
EDIT: I remember now, the topic on the show was what you would do on Father's Day if you could. That's when the guy made his statement. [/quote]
You know, there are men out there who are deadbeats, purposely. And those men probably should be strung up in the town square by their thumbs and humiliated. They are NOT "men", in my opinion.
One of those sites that you referred to says that ... I think I added it up and found that it was about 3% of all children are being raised by single men. That's PATHETIC. It needs to be more than that. Now, there's a difference between men who impregnated a woman without ever marrying her and then found themselves having a hard time convincing anyone to let them have a place in the kid's live... and men who had children with thier wives, who came home to the children every day and then at the time of separation were 100% cut off of all that time just because the mother said that she was "primary".
If the presumption were that there is no "primary" parent, but just that in a household headed by a couple they are allowed to choose a division of labor that they no longer have the luxury of choosing when they separate... and that both parents are presumed to be jointly responsible for the children AND the support of the children, then the only child support we'd have in those circustances is a small amount needed to bring up a sub-standard lower wage earner's home up to par... not EVEN par with the higher wage earner's, but at least giving the kids enough bedrooms and making sure she could afford to heat the place in the winter... We'd have a lot less people thinking that the woman had an automatic right to keep the marital home (and since most can't afford to do that if they're the lower wage earner, most of them would be moving out and eithe rselling the house to a stranger or selling thier half to the husband.)
If we could oootch the outcomes of custody cases towards mroe fairness in TIME division between the parents, the natureal result would be more parity in support obligations.
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EZmark
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Reged: 06/04/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Florida
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I'm not going to argue with you Gigi because I think we actually agree on the moral idea of fairness and the importance of both parents, the state of mind of victims of the unbeleivably devious and evil ways of narcissists, and perhaps more. I just don't share your upbeat and 'sigh' hopeful outlook, maybe because my wounds are so fresh, or because I don't have anyone else in my life (not even looking!) lucky as you do. I think that positive attitude is good for a support forum though, even if as a foil. I'm just saying that jbar's views, whether extreme or not, and apart from the person himself, are as valid on every thread as is the effect being broke is valid in every decision a person has to make in their life. This is the reality of divorce, the family court system, society and all the rest, and I don't see it changing soon or without a lot more people sufferring and dying.
Apparently jbar is also an engineer and must have an analytical mind. I don't know if he's crazy, but even crazy people can utter profound statements. IMHO jbar should start another community property thread, link to this thread, and keep bumping it as that is apparently one of his foremost concerns. That would be the polite way to do it, but we're not in a theatre and you can't call the usher every time you see CAPS. I have seen ranting by many on many threads, I don't know that it's ever out of place on an open divorce forum, certainly property division as unfair as it is warrants ranting. I try to I speak up about things that I have personal experience with and let others figure out for themselves what to think about me or jbar. I do that in my regular life too. The only time I ever mind another's business is if I observe abuse of children or animals, I think that's everyone's business because they are defenseless. IMO jbar does not tarnish fatherhood or me any more than jaded tarnishes you.
Not to get distracted, I never liked Father Knows Best, way too corny for me. Ward Cleaver yyccchh too. Now Baywatch is another story, thats still running in syndication in Asia.
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jbar
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Reged: 12/16/06
Posts: 1063
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Gigi, EZ has it the right take on my comments. You however still don't "get it"--and even still have the story of my experiences all wrong. My own personal story and experience are not even the point though; the point is that, as I have often attempted to explain to you before, courts outrageously ASSUME that men owe their wives half of everything they have, and this assumption can only be rebutted by proof that any particular dollar, titled exclusively in the man's name, is NOT rightly one-half the property of his wife and to a special, high standard, only seen in criminal cases.
I worked for many years, risking my life and health, to accumulate a few dimes--before I ever met my wife--and for the last ten years or so I have had to grapple with the reality that one-half of these assets belong to her, as with the best of intentions I moved this money numerous times between investments so that, as a result, the strict traceability required by law to prove any seperate property is likely impossible. In addition some records were destroyed in a fire. This schizophrenic woman now has the ability, in all likelihood, to rob me blind any time her "voices" may so instruct her and, given her mental problems, could even be disabled and force me to pay her alimony for the rest of her life (possibly even from my estate after I am dead)!
You know, Gigi, I believe that the only thing which would allow you to understand what I am talking about would be to experience victimization by this kind of stupid law for yourself. Only if someone like you could experience the moment, for yourself, when you suddenly realize that you are already guilty and already legally liable to someone else--even though you know that you are not in fact guilty or liable--could you ever appreciate the acute, exquisite agony resulting from the realization that you are the official and agreed, proper victim and whipping boy, of a self-serving demagogic system. Until that time any additional attempts to explain the injustice of such a system will be wasted on you.
BTW EZ, I have started a number of threads on this subject of property, on this site and others, and they all essentially ran their course after a great many posts. These are the threads in which I previously tried to educate Gigi, but she just can't seem to ever get it. Maybe she needs to feel the cold sting of demagogic and arbitrary law herself by, for example, getting a job as a secretary and having her boss order her to sign the paychecks, subsequent to which the boss leaves town with all of the company's assets, leaving her personally responsible BY LAW for all of the company's debts (this actually happens)!
Edited by jbar (06/14/08 01:54 AM)
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stoltz
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Reged: 01/29/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: Texas
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From CNN ...
Dads willing to pay for time with kids http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/worklife/06/13/cb.dads.home/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------ Many working dads would be willing to trade work for family time if it were financially possible, according to CareerBuilder.com's annual "Working Dads" survey.
Thirty-seven percent say they would take a pay cut if it meant spending more time at home.
Of those fathers, 42 percent say they would take a pay cut of 10 percent or more. Of dads who live in households with more than one income, 37 percent would leave their job if their family could live off their spouse or significant other's income. ------------------------------------------------------------
Daddy Boot Camp http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1812052,00.html
---------------------------------------------------------- "The societal view of dads is that we're bumbling fools," Steve Dubin tells his all-male audience. It's Saturday morning in Weymouth, Mass., and 14 soon-to-be fathers are paying him to help keep them from fulfilling that stereotype. Dubin, a p.r. executive and Little League coach, pairs three rookies with three dads willing to hand over their babies for training purposes. Support the head, the instruction begins. Act naturally because babies can smell fear. Roll them over and rub their backs if they start to cry. "You'll probably hold the baby differently from your wife. That's O. K.," Dubin says. "But this will be the beginning of, 'Why are you doing it that way?'" he warns. "Tell your wife, 'We're going to do things differently, and you have to allow me to.'" -----------------------------------------------------------
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pueblonative
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Reged: 03/21/06
Posts: 337
Loc: Colorado
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You know how many judges and cse workers would go apeturd (pardon the phrase) if men started doing that?
-------------------- NCP revue
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numbnms
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Reged: 10/18/07
Posts: 708
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Stoltz in essence taking a paycut is what I did in order to secure 50/50 custody. I am paying roughly 50% more in child support than I should and did so to 'buy' my time with the kids. So yes I am more than anecdotal evidence of the willingness of men to do such things. She was willing to sell the kids and hey I was there with a check.
I was told there was no way in heck my particular judge would allow 50/50 custody and she had never done so in the past. Our agreement hit her desk, she saw I was paying 150% of child support she signed it without ever batting an eye. What do you think the odds of the same judge signing the same agreement with me paying 50% of the expected child support? Even if that is what the parents agreed to?
Nope courts arent biased....off my soapbox, see I wasnt up there long this time.
-------------------- Forget waiting for the storm to pass
Learn to dance in the rain
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cedc
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Reged: 03/02/07
Posts: 556
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I settled so all I had to do was go to a settlement hearing.When the judge got to the Joint legal WITH physical 46% parenting time and GUIDELINE child support he stopped. He sat there drumming his fingers for what seemed like forever. He asked her "Are you certain that you agree with this? She agreed, he SIGHED,HE FRICKIN SIGHED and said allllll righhhhtt. Wouldn't have been my ruling, but signed it any way.
Why not Mr. Judgy? Why can't my kids still have a Dad and pay what THE STATE says he has too? Who is going to reimburse me the 3 grand, and counting, I have paid out for things that are COVERED BY CHILD SUPPORT!!!!Riiiiiggghhhttt. Nobody.
My X actually argued with me that school lunch was an extraordinary expense. No shit. I honestly can't remember as to why I married this woman.
-------------------- My X makes Peg Bundy look good.
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stoltz
Platinum

Reged: 01/29/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: Texas
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And people claim indentured servitude went away with the 13th amendment. Here, you can pay MORE for the RIGHT to see YOUR children more than your originally allotted 25% (twonights a week and EOW). How sad.
And people wonder why (1) divorced fathers commit suicide 2-4x higher than divorced mothers, (2) some divorced fathers kill their exes, their children, and themselves, and (3) why some divorced fathers try to (and sometimes do) kill judges, etc.
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EZmark
Platinum

Reged: 06/04/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Florida
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I wish I could have afforded to pay the ransom. There is no justice for fathers in court.
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