liberated
Platinum
Reged: 10/02/07
Posts: 562
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Well, it's getting deeper and deeper around here. Of my 5 children, 2 of them (both girls-10 and 16) do not ever want to see their father again. We have been divorced 6 months now and as soon as it was all in the open, these two felt safe enough to share how they felt about their father. They feel unloved, angry, afraid of him. They really complain about visitation although he only has EOW and Thurs. nights. (about 20% time). I never knew how they felt about him before...they knew I wouldn't have allowed them to talk disrespectfully about their father. Now, I am still not allowing disrespect, but they can tell me how they feel. They never want to see him again.
Friday night my 10 yo hid when it was time to go with him. She had snacks and water. She left me a note about how she "couldn't take it any more", "I couldn't force her to go", etc. Up to this point, I have just told them he is their father, he does love them although it's hard to show for him, and that they need to go with him. I have tried to make their time with him more pleasant by sending things for their room, snacks when they traveled with him ( I asked him first). He and I have extremely minimal contact, bare essentials via email.
Anyway, I did find her after searching 20 minutes, just before I went out to tell him, but one of the other kids had already told him. he blew up at all of them later out of anger.
The issue is that he suffers from narcissism. It's been discussed here in other posts so I won't elaborate, but the bottom line is that it is ALWAYS about him. Rather than realizing his own kid hates him enough to hide so she didn't have to go, and trying to get to the bottom of it, and fix it, he got angry and called her a "spoiled brat". The whole rampage was about HIM and how this is affecting him. All the things that were wrong between he and I is happening with the girls. He tries to make them happy by doing HIS IDEAS, while not really showing love by interacting with them, coming to their performances, asking what they would like to do... If you really dislike a person strongly (as they do), he can do all the outings he wants and they still won't want to be with him. In our worst stage leading up to the divorce, when I not only feared him but hated him, he offered to take me to France, like that would fix it. Now he's offering to take her to the theme park and yelling that she's not being grateful. She doesn't want to go at all if it's with HIM.
Both of these girls just say it's not fair that I can divorce him and avoid him and they can't. I have to agree it doesn't seem fair. If he's not taking them somewhere (where he essentially ignores and sometimes even dumps them), he's ignoring them at the house while he does his own thing.
He doesn't see things as a normal person does. This is all my fault...he is the victim...they are ungrateful children...etc. I admit he seems to be trying pretty hard to please them, but he's trying in HIS OWN way, and they aren't feeling the love :) All I can do is tell them I can't keep them from going, it's the rules...but I do listen to them, because he won't--tells them to Shut Up or Hush if they tell him anything he doesn't want to hear. They just want to be heard.
I'm running out of rope. She promised me she wouldn't hide any more and I told her if I had not found her, I would have had to call the police and when THEY found her, they'd have to make her go with her father since that's his right. I don't know what else I can do. I feel like such an ogre sending her where she is so obviously miserable, but he does not physically abuse them. It's all very subtle, mostly neglect and emotional abuse but nothing that should cause him to lose his visitation.
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Kimberley
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bootstrapjro
New
Reged: 11/23/07
Posts: 13
Loc: OK
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Sorry to hear that your girls feel like that. It sure is hard on the children but sometimes kids are resilient and bounce back after things that we do as adults. I know after reading some of your entries that you are a good foundation for all of your kids. So with that foundation your girls will have a good resource to share their feelings with but the law says that they have to see dad no mater what they feel which is kind of sad. My wife’s 11 year old dad finally agreed to let her decide her summers and when to spend it with him. Before now he would say that he was getting shorted of his time with her. We are lucky in those decisions. But it sounds like your Ex is on the other scale of being selfish and looking out for himself. Which is very sad, it seems that life should be for helping our kids getting a good start at life themselves.
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Boot
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2NoCharm
New
Reged: 03/05/08
Posts: 24
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I guess my goal would be to establish a line of communication with the demon-dad. Just for the sake of your children. Suck it up and talk to him. Let him know that you are willing to do what it takes for him to have time with them, that you want your children to to have a Dad, but that they need some comfort level when they are with him. Maybe you have to shoulder some of the "blame" just for the kids' sake. Say that you are just more in tune to thier emotions, being the Mom, although he is a good dad. Tell him how they(kids) feel and ask that he re-evaluate his reactions just so the kids will want to be with him. I'll tell you, I would do whatever it takes, within reason, to make my kids less miserable, if the situation allows it. But with men, you have to make them feel good about themselves......and about their parenting skills. His outbursts are probably a sign of insecurity - you were probably the leader in "parenting" before the divorce. He may not have a clue. No matter how difficult, you need to boost his ego as a parent and pretend to be on his side. This will probably allow him to let his guard down and play fair. He just wants to be accepted as a dad and is doing the macho thing right now. Good luck. 'Just my opionion and you know what they say about "opinions".
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liberated
Platinum
Reged: 10/02/07
Posts: 562
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You're probably right, I'll be thinking on this more in the next few days. Thanks.
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Kimberley
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livingforme
Bronze
Reged: 02/07/08
Posts: 32
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I haven't logged on in for some time, but did today because I'm really struggling with the CoParenting with a Narcissist issue and then I found this post ....
Before the divorce, my kids loved their dad - they were his source of love and admiration. He was best friends with the kids and I was the "Mean Mom" because I was the sole parent.
Well, have things changed. Within a month of the divorce being final, he got a new gf and he's been seeing this same woman now for several months ...
So now he has a new source of love and admiration and the kids no longer play that role. So is he no longer their best friend, and he's become a dictator father.
I won't bother with the details - but all three of my kids are being alienated from their father - the gf is more important to him and they all know it. They are seeing their father for what he truly is. I had expected something like this to happen and it has - his kids are seeing his true colors.
The part of me that hates me my says "Excellent! Your kids know now their dad is a real jerk and that will change their relationship with him, and they will prefer being with me!" My true feelings are actually of sadness, because my kids are going having from a best-friend father to a harsh father, and no child should have to experience that sort of alienation from a parent.
My kids are 15, 18, and 20, so they're old enough to recognize their dad is a cold, emotionless, self-centered person.
They all are upset with how their dad is treating them, and there's nothing I can do but support them and encourage them to stand up to their dad - which none of them will do because he just yells at them. Two of my kids have counselors to help them out.
As their mother, all I can do is offer support and be caring for them.
Thanks for listening - I feel better now.
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liberated
Platinum
Reged: 10/02/07
Posts: 562
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Living, i do understand what you're feeling. I think something that happens in this circumstance is that when they are responsible for the relationship on their own, without any assistance or buffering from you, it's not so rewarding. I know my kids tell me at least when we were together, I intervened to make things better. I was the buffer that softened his wrath.
It's also sad that your ex has found someone else so easily and I'm sure that hurts your children. i've given lots of thought to whether it would be good or bad for my ex to find another. In my case, my kids are little and it would probably be better. I hope your kids can at least remember the good times and be thankful for that. When the novelty of the gf wears off, he'll probably try to spend more time with them, don't you think?
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Kimberley
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EZmark
Platinum
Reged: 06/04/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Florida
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There are a lot of people referred to on this thread that are NOT narcissists. I'd just like to say to anyone that IS dealing with a true narcissist or bi polar (ie:they meet OR EXCEED 9 out of 10 of the clinical behaviors completly) , co parenting is just NOT POSSIBLE. Do not even try as the attempts are damaging. It cannot work. Period. !
Parallel Parenting, my rules at my house and their rules at their house is the best that you can hope for. Uncoordinated because niceness = weakness. Think being circled by starving wolves, the narcissist feeds the same way.
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juliacinaz
Platinum
Reged: 02/03/08
Posts: 962
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So what are these clinical behaviors of the so-called narcissist? I keep hearing this term being tossed around and I am confused.
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gigi
Platinum
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5178
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It's not just self-absorption and selfishness, for certain. Google NPD and DSM, and you'll find the official diagnostic categories.
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juliacinaz
Platinum
Reged: 02/03/08
Posts: 962
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[quote]It's not just self-absorption and selfishness, for certain. Google NPD and DSM, and you'll find the official diagnostic categories. [/quote]
OMG! GiGi! You actually wrote a short response?? LMAO!
;)~
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livingforme
Bronze
Reged: 02/07/08
Posts: 32
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<<< Parallel Parenting, my rules at my house and their rules at their house is the best that you can hope for. Uncoordinated because niceness = weakness. Think being circled by starving wolves, the narcissist feeds the same way. >>>
"Parallel Parenting" - that's a good phrase. And it is exactly how things are - I'm a parent with rules at my house. When we were married he was never a parent - just a best buddy to the kids. But now that he has the new gf, he is starting to lay down rules at his house - and they are inconsistent rules. Apparently his stern response is "The law of sibling unequality is the rule here."
What's really, really hard is I have an adult daughter with serious, chronic mental illness and consistency and structure are extremely important for her. But there is little consistency - so she's spiraling downwards. Her counselor said we need consistency between the households - with my ex, that only means his way.
This sucks.
(By the way, I fully understand that few people have full-blown NPD, and my ex probably doesn't - but he has very strong narcissistic behaviors and probably has 4-5 of the characteristics - the biggest being his lack of empathy - he is amazingly cold and emotionless.)
Thankfully, I'm a strong person and just keep on plugging away, dealing with all this stuff.
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mommy04
New
Reged: 07/12/08
Posts: 8
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this was an intersting thread. My x was diagnosed with everything from bi polar to major depressive disorder. My best guess is borderline. He can be very verbaly abusive and mean. He did hit and push me around in the marrage. Now I am 4 years later in a very stable relationship with a wonderful man. Between the two of us we have 4 kids. My 11 year old will not see her dad. He lives out of state and she refuses to get on a plane. My 13 year old is ADD and very much has the emotional ablity of a 9 year old. The last year and I think in response to my upcoming marrage he has told her he is going to get custody of her. He has visitation and I allowed him to select some time this summer after summer school. He only bought her a one way ticket. He tells me that he is going to buy the return ticket and said he would put it in an email to confirm but he has no money. He has never paid support. I am scared to let her go without a return ticket. I don't know my rights if he keeps her.
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andreasolitaria
Bronze
Reged: 03/05/06
Posts: 47
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Hi everybody... First of all, please excuse my english bc i am spanish... i will try to write as good as posible...
I had divorced from my 18 years husband a year ago, and after 5 years going forward and reconciliating until nothing can save our marriage. My counselor, from the beggining of the crisis in my marriage, had always said me my ex is narcissist bc his behavior and selfish way of thinking about everything, speciallly our relationship. I can say now he really hit my self steem and still now he continue to do that but now i dont let him or at least i ask him to shut up when he began to attack me, now because my parenting skills.
We both have 3 kids, 8, 15 and 16 years old. And now, my 16 daughter is suffering what i had siffered for many years in other way: a narcissist father. He has a same gf since last december (until then he had had others 3 different gf but never introduce them to my kids in a formal way) and he wants my kids to accept her as a part of the family,letting them to her house (she has two kids), eating all together like a familly, inviting her to a travel he had planned with my kids on summer, although he introduce her to my kids on may.
My oldest Daughter is receiving the hard part bc she is the only one who talks sincerely to his father... my other daughter is 8, too little to talk or understand, and my son try to be appart, not looking for troubles also he had demanded him more attention some times. The thing is oldest daughter doesnt speak at all to his father right now, she said she feel frustrated bc his behavior, she told me she doesnt recognize his father... this bc she had had two hard fights with him always bc his gf. He called me many times asking me for help... crying like a victim bc he loves her daughter, etc, i had helped him,they reconciliate, talk, and then he again began to act in a selfish way, without thinking a little in her adolescent daughter heart. So i asked him to maintain me appart and that he will have to resolve his relation problem with my daughter alone... I had helped him although he always began conversations telling me "you are doing a lot of hurt to your kids"... afforttunately right now i am a lot stronger and i dont accept this kind of games with my self steem... i am a 20 points mother... my children always count on me, they are always in first place for me so... he can say anything just to feel better himself, but he knows that not true... My daughter doesnt want to go to that travel... she prefered to lose knowing new countries, buyng clothes, just bc she is so angry with his father... i let her to counselor, but the last date the counselor said she is so closed, angry and she doesnt wants to apologyze him... she say she doesnt beleive in his words any more... This is so difficult, i can feel her really sad, depress, bc i know she loves her dad. Each time i try to talk to her about apologyzing him or trying to get better and that accepting his father gf is a time set, she get even moro angry with me... Right now the other 2 kids are in dad home bc he arrived from a travel (with the gf and the two kids of her. My children doesnt know this).
My oldest daughter is here, with me, and he is acting like she really doesnt exist although i have to accept he try to call her from the travel and she didnt want to talk with him... In the past years i was the one who dissapoint my ex bc telling him not to spend too much in travels, to think in buying a home, and all of that... now is my daughter who is telling him "hey, please... we need more time with you, i need for more attention from you" and bc this doesnt fit with his plans, he is yelling her each time... This is so difficult... i cant detach finally from him... i can cut the rope from him bc all this issues with my children.. my little D is suffering a lot when he let her to his gf home, bc the daughter of her treat my little children bad!! About my son, he is so difficult bc he doesnt like to talk at all... he try to avoid all the conversations, he try not to see any mistake in him or in me...
So, yes... divorcing a narcissist is a roller coaster still... as when we were marriage and i was trying to get on with our relationship... now is harder bc i live with my kids and i suffer with them their deceptions, their scare, theis frustration...
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asadmom
New
Reged: 05/07/08
Posts: 21
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Have dealt with many of these same issues for years. When my kids were little they only saw Dad as fun. It wasn't until they were teenagers that they got a real dose of a selfish, self absorbed man. I never had to tell them, they figured it all out on their own. Now when he does something harmful, I just say," I am so sorry that he is not or can not be the father you wish he was. You have to learn to accept and love him for who he is. " I also repeat this a lot, "on the day you were conceived and the day you were born, you were wanted and loved." My other is," he is your father, you need to work it out for yourself if not for him." It seems to help them.
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andreasolitaria
Bronze
Reged: 03/05/06
Posts: 47
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Dear Sad Mom:
Thanks for your words, i hope can help me and help all the friends here thar are suffering bc the same issue: selfish!!...
I had said that words, specially the ones who relate with loving her father as he is... and that this effort is for her mainly and not for him... I hope some day this words will produce the effect i want to see in my daughter. An hour ago i had a sad conversation (many yellings from her part) just bc i asked her to speak with him, to try fixing the relation with his father... And she was so dissapointed with me, she feel i beleive more in his father, in what he say is the cause of what is happening, and no... i beleive her but also i am tired just receiving phone calls after phone calls from his father saying me he is desperate and doesnt know what to do to resolve the issue, although he lies all the problem, the causes, in his daughter and nothing with him.... and even more, telling me i am acting bad just permiting her not to talk him, that i am causing her a big damage, etc etc etc. So, again, thanks... i really hope this words i had said many times some day cause the effects i want on my child: she in peace and feeling ok, not depress, not sad, bc his dad.
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sandij15
Platinum
Reged: 09/13/06
Posts: 1981
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I haven't logged on for a long time, but when I seen your post my heart went out to you. I have been divorced for almost three years now. I have sole custody of my children, one of them now an adult. My children also chose not to see their father because of the things he said and did. My ex fits many of the narcissistic tendencies and has been diagnosed with OCD. Anyway, my children still do not have a relationship with their father. They have tried to talk with him about their feelings regarding the divorce, his treatment of all of us during the process and after and also his marriage to the then 18 year-old girl (who tried to be with our oldest son (he was 18 as well) at the same time she was seeing my then husband). Only to be told things such as "I don't live my life for you." and "It's about my happiness, I have a right to be happy".
Anyway, my heart goes out to you and your children, it has been a difficult journey for my children and me. They are now 21, 17 and 12. It has been very much the rollercoaster. My children actually coped with the whole thing much better than I did. Life is better than it was and it has steadily gotten better each passing year.
Words of advice.... Do not try to fix the relationship between your ex and your children, I tried because I truly believed they needed that relationship and felt bad for my ex that he didn't get to see his children. But time and time again, he proved by his actions and his words that he was more interested in himself than he was in having a relationship with them. I was the last one to see him for who and what he really became.
Be responsible for your relationship with your children. Let him be responsible for his.
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