momonthego
New
Reged: 06/26/08
Posts: 5
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I am new to this forum, so please bear with me! I am just disgusted and exasperated! Posted this on the state part of this forum (for WY) but am getting no replies at all. Do not live in WY now and have not lived in WY for approximately 8 years.
Existing court order established in WY is approximately 12 years old. Lived in WY for many years, however, relocated approximately almost eight years ago to financially advance with another job opportunity. Have two kids with this ex and two kids from a former marriage. Raise four kids alone. It has not been easy, but thus far, we are squeaking by.
This gentleman (and I use that term loosely!) is a governmental worker who resides in WY. Was ordered to pay a nominal amount of child support then, being the kids were very young. He fell into arrears quickly and subsequently was hit with a withholding order in the early 1990's. Was also ordered to provide medical insurance, of which he may have put the kids on the policy, however, did not ever provide the provisions necessary for the kids to utilize the insurance and did not provide these provisions (policy provisions, insurance cards etc) to the court. When I moved with the kids, they were all uninsured and I paid for all costs on medical out of pocket. I have billed him in writing many times for these costs and requested insurance cards and policy provisions on many occasions. He was also ordered at that time to pay half of all expenses not covered by insurance. Since 2003, I have obtained medical insurance through my employer, which costs me approximately $1000.00 per month after taxes.
Furthermore, his contact with the kids has been all but nil, as he has not had any physical contact with them for years, and only sporadically telephones them to have a short trite conversations such as "how are you...how are you doing..goodbye." They are now almost 14 years old and there living expenses are great. Kids are also starting to understand that he is a deadbeat, without my ever saying anything, as they notice their friends' dads are supportive and not like theirs. Three or four years ago, NCP remarried a woman who has taken over the care of her three year old grandchild (mother was on drugs or something) and NCP makes statements to the kids during his infrequent calls about this child being their baby sister! Kids have never met this child and are baffled at his behavior. Heartbreaking indeed.
I now am utilizing a private attorney in the state we live (as we have not lived in WY for many years) in to seek reimbursement of these costs and modify this court order interstate and this is truly expensive. I may have to also hire an attorney in WY as WY has the exclusive jurisdiction on this matter, yet, no actions have been filed by the noncustodial parent ever, so it was hopeful that the jurisdiction could be challenged. However, the disgruntled deadbeat hired an interstate attorney to challenge this change in venue, wanting the matter to be heard in this state. The deadbeat can afford to do that, but cannot pay back medical? His support order is very nominal, as Mr. Postman claimed on his initial financial affidavit, a GROSS income of $19,000 when he had nearly 10 years of service in this area back in the mid to late 1990's, when the order was first established.
What brought me to the point of hiring an attorney, is that the disgruntled deadbeat also writes me yearly letters asking me to sign IRS form 8332, to allow him to take one of the kids as an exemption. Every year, I write him a response, indicating I will not sign the 8332, as he does not provide over 1/2 of their support, nor has he reimbursed me on medical costs and premiums I have paid for them to have health insurance since he has reneged. He typically then gets ugly, and writes, "If you do not do so and so...I will file contempt...and I will call my lawyer" ad infinitum, ad nauseum. The IRS indicates that he cannot simply attach a copy of the court order, as the court order is conditional, stating that he can take one child as an exemption if his child support is paid in full by Dec 31 of the preceding year.
I have always had a relatively good relationship with the child support enforcement office in WY, however, I am very bothered to learn that if I utilize them, and not a private attorney, that they can seek a contempt order on the fact that the insurance cards have never been produced by the deadbeat, thus inhibiting the kids from being able to use his court ordered insurance, however, they cannot get a judgment for the $30K or so in back documented medical costs that I have spent over the years for their care and the premiums I have paid while the noncustodial parent failed to provide. Enforcement office tells me that they can only do that if I were collecting or had collected state assistance....and then of course that would be reimbursed to the state, not the custodial parent, as the state would have then paid for the kids' care.
This sounds ludicrous! So, if you go on assistance, they will beat it out of the deadbeat, but if not, you must fork out thousands (to retain an interstate attorney) to get what the kids are entitled to have and you must take away from the kids to retain this exorbitantly costly attorney? Yet, a person not collecting state assistance can get help from child support enforcement for a $25.00 (I believe that is what I paid 12 or 13 years ago..) Did I get this picture right? Not sure I understand this, as the WY statutes indicate that this indeed can be prosecuted. (But according to child support enforcement, "only by a private attorney," as "we do not seek private judgments for individuals" I thought they would be helping the kids as well as the CP. This almost sounds discriminatory. See statute below:
ARTICLE 4 - MEDICAL SUPPORT FOR CHILDREN
20-2-401.� Medical support to be included as part of child support order.
(a)� In any action to establish or modify a child support obligation, the court shall order either or both of the parents to provide medical support, which may include dental, optical or other health care needs for their dependent children.� The court shall:
(i)� Require in the support order:
(A)� That one (1) or both parents shall provide insurance coverage for the children if insurance can be obtained through an employer or other group carrier, or if it is otherwise reasonably available; and
(B)� That one (1) or both parents be liable to pay any medical expenses not covered by insurance and any deductible amount on the required insurance coverage; or
(ii)� Specify in the court order the proportion for which each parent will be liable for any medical expenses, which may include dental, optical or other health care expenses incurred by any person or agency on behalf of a child if the expenses are not covered by insurance.
(b)� When the insurance coverage is ordered pursuant to subsection (a) of this section, the court shall order the obligated parent to submit to the court and to the other parent, or to the other parent's representative, written proof that the insurance has been obtained or that application for insurability has been made within sixty (60) days after the entry of the order requiring insurance coverage.� Proof of insurance coverage shall contain, at a minimum:
(i)� The name of the insurer;
(ii)� The policy number;
(iii)� The address to which all claims should be mailed;
(iv)� A description of any restrictions on usage, such as preapproval for hospital admission, and the manner in which to obtain preapproval;
(v)� A description of all deductibles; and
(vi)� Two (2) copies of claim forms.
(c)� The court shall order the obligated parent to notify the court and the other parent if insurance coverage for any child is denied, revoked, or altered in any way that would affect the other parent including any change relating to information required in subsection (b) of this section.
(d)� The court may hold an obligated parent in contempt for refusing to provide the ordered insurance, or for failing or refusing to provide the information required in subsections (b) and (c) of this section.
(e)� In addition to enforcement by contempt, as provided for in subsection (d) of this section, the obligated parent is liable to the other parent, any person or agency for:
(i)� Part or all of the cost of medical care and medical insurance premiums paid or provided to a child for any period in which the obligated parent failed to provide required coverage;
(ii)� Any direct insurance benefits received by the obligated parent and not used for the medical care of the child; and
(iii)� Any reasonable attorney fees and costs incurred in collection that the court may determine appropriate.
I have no beef with anyone who is on assistance who is entitled to it. However, why does the state of WY choose to promote this type of dependency which is regressive and backward? Should not enforcement, ENFORCE an order, regardless of what your status is?...for the sake of the kids?
And we wonder why the economy is in trouble?
I am not knocking WY. I love WY. ( Despite the fact, I certainly did not have any help from the governmental deadbeat!)
But I have seen other posts on many forums from various individuals indicating that WY it is a tough place to have orders enforced and I am wondering why.
I am not crazy enough to believe this has only happened to me, as chances are , this has happened to many.
I do wish to get the kids what is due, but now am at a loss of direction. Not sure where to turn next. I am trying to hang on, but I certainly resent the noncustodial parent's lack of help! It would not solve all of our fiscal problems, but his financial support would sure help, especially the way the economy sits today.
Help please! Feedback would be most appreciated. I extend my thanks in advance. Sometimes feel like I am at my wits end with this, yet, I know there must be a solution.
I simply need to find it!
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Jada
Platinum
Reged: 06/02/07
Posts: 3345
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The child support office may not be able to get a judgement for the medical expenses for the kids, but you can by filing a contempt of court motion compelling him to pay, I would ask that a percentage gets garnished until it is paid off. As long as your ex lives in WY, WY has jurisdiction and that is where you will have to file. Check the guidelines for child support, if it says health insurance is an add-on, get his portion of what you pay for the kids added onto the child support and as that it is garnished from his wages. He is a governmental worker, he should be easy to find.
This is going to cost money, but since he is failing to comply with a court order, you may get the judge to order him to pay your legal fees. There is no guarantee of that, though. So you need to weigh if this fight would be worth it to you.
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theanswerguy
Platinum
Reged: 04/12/07
Posts: 2190
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Existing court order established in WY is approximately 12 years old. Lived in WY for many years, however, relocated approximately almost eight years ago to financially advance with another job opportunity. Have two kids with this ex and two kids from a former marriage. Raise four kids alone. It has not been easy, but thus far, we are squeaking by.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You've had 12 years to seek modification/enforcement .
This gentleman (and I use that term loosely!) is a governmental worker who resides in WY. Was ordered to pay a nominal amount of child support then, being the kids were very young. He fell into arrears quickly and subsequently was hit with a withholding order in the early 1990's. Was also ordered to provide medical insurance, of which he may have put the kids on the policy, however, did not ever provide the provisions necessary for the kids to utilize the insurance and did not provide these provisions (policy provisions, insurance cards etc) to the court. When I moved with the kids, they were all uninsured and I paid for all costs on medical out of pocket. I have billed him in writing many times for these costs and requested insurance cards and policy provisions on many occasions. He was also ordered at that time to pay half of all expenses not covered by insurance. Since 2003, I have obtained medical insurance through my employer, which costs me approximately $1000.00 per month after taxes.
>>>>>>>> You should have filed for enforcement/modification .
I now am utilizing a private attorney in the state we live (as we have not lived in WY for many years) in to seek reimbursement of these costs and modify this court order interstate and this is truly expensive. I may have to also hire an attorney in WY as WY has the exclusive jurisdiction on this matter, yet, no actions have been filed by the noncustodial parent ever, so it was hopeful that the jurisdiction could be challenged. However, the disgruntled deadbeat hired an interstate attorney to challenge this change in venue, wanting the matter to be heard in this state. The deadbeat can afford to do that, but cannot pay back medical? His support order is very nominal, as Mr. Postman claimed on his initial financial affidavit, a GROSS income of $19,000 when he had nearly 10 years of service in this area back in the mid to late 1990's, when the order was first established.
>>>>>>>>> Bad idea , changing jurisdiction while one party lives in the state with CEJ is almost impossible . You've had years to enforce/modify your order .
What brought me to the point of hiring an attorney, is that the disgruntled deadbeat also writes me yearly letters asking me to sign IRS form 8332, to allow him to take one of the kids as an exemption. Every year, I write him a response, indicating I will not sign the 8332, as he does not provide over 1/2 of their support, nor has he reimbursed me on medical costs and premiums I have paid for them to have health insurance since he has reneged. He typically then gets ugly, and writes, "If you do not do so and so...I will file contempt...and I will call my lawyer" ad infinitum, ad nauseum. The IRS indicates that he cannot simply attach a copy of the court order, as the court order is conditional, stating that he can take one child as an exemption if his child support is paid in full by Dec 31 of the preceding year.
>>>>>>>>>>> Is THE AMOUNT contained in the CO paid in full every year by 12/31 ?
I have always had a relatively good relationship with the child support enforcement office in WY, however, I am very bothered to learn that if I utilize them, and not a private attorney, that they can seek a contempt order on the fact that the insurance cards have never been produced by the deadbeat, thus inhibiting the kids from being able to use his court ordered insurance, however, they cannot get a judgment for the $30K or so in back documented medical costs that I have spent over the years for their care and the premiums I have paid while the noncustodial parent failed to provide. Enforcement office tells me that they can only do that if I were collecting or had collected state assistance....and then of course that would be reimbursed to the state, not the custodial parent, as the state would have then paid for the kids' care.
>>>>>>>>>> Insurance would have been better adressed via contempt /enforcement at the time the issues arose . Any insurance premiums could have been added to CS and be subject to enforcement and WITHHOLDING . You cannot seek repayment for premiums paid in the past , that would be a retroactive modification contrary to federal law . You SHOULD seek repayment of all out of pocket expenses NOT covered by insurance that you have documentation for . Wyoming CAN help you in obtaining a judgement for these costs ALONE .
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Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right. Isaac Asimov
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momonthego
New
Reged: 06/26/08
Posts: 5
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Thank you for your reply. Perhaps I should file a contempt motion for his failure to provide medical insurance access. What good is the medical insurance to the kids if there is no access for them?
I was just hoping to avoid paying out more for an interstate attorney, as I have paid out the yang here, but I guess it cannot be avoided.
I was really hoping that the uniform interstate act covered some of this.
No, I am not seeking a retroactive modification, as that would be impossible.
But yes, I can seek contempt in this jurisdiction (which does take time and money) and ask that those out of pocket expenses be paid, plus the premiums that I have paid out to secure the kids' insurance. That is quite a tidy sum. The kids are also both in need of orthodontics, which is going to be expensive. I have already sent the NCP the estimate and a letter from the dentist, indicating that this placement of orthodontics is not for cosmetic purposes but for medical need. Of course, he has done absolutely nothing as usual! Very disheartening.
Just seemed a little unfair that the state will prosecute him to the hilt if the kids and I were receiving state assistance and fail to intercede at all on our behalf as we do not receive assistance as medical costs are exorbitant.
I do appreciate any and all feedback. Thank you!
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gigi
Platinum
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5052
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Some of your original post is hard to follow as it's tough to figure out whether some of the names you're calling him are accurate or somehow stuff you've made up for him.
Mr. Postman? Is he a postal worker/federal government employee? If so, you should have (about 12 years ago) provided a copy fo the decree to his HR department and gotten them to send you copies of the kids' insurance cards, which might have solved all this. The government doesn't much approve of deadbeats in it's employ, and would certainly follow any garnishment direct-pay setup you'd made years ago. If whatever is the current order for that is paid up as of the end of every year, you do owe him the value of whatever exemption he is supposed to get every year. And if he is paid up on support because it's taken by wage assignment, but not paid up in unreimbursed health costs becasue it's something you have to present the bill for an dge payment afterwards, then it's kind of no wonder that he's withholding payment, if you've improperly refused to give you the exemptions for the kids on his income taxes every year.
If that is the case, then you might want to re-think spending your money to file contempt on the medical thing... he'll turn around & file contempt on the exemption thing and the court might consider it a wash (or worse, might actually add up the numbers and if the loss to him was bigger than the loss it should have been to you, they might end up making YOU pay the difference). And you'll have paid a lawyer to file contempt charges for nothing.
Finally, if you are upset that he's not gotten raises in the past 12 years and want proof that he's lying on his affidavits, if he is "mr. postman", a government worker, as you've implied a few times, it's easy enough to get records of his current salary. The government complies with subpoenaea on this stuff regualrly... and it's supposed to also be public record, though the procedures for getting the information via a public record request are almost harder than just issuign a subpoena. You could have had this information a long time ago if you were thinking that it deserved an amendment of the support.
You've not sought an amendment in 12 years? That's too long and you've not been doing your kids any favors by not gettign updated figures for their father's support. But there were probably other considerations in your decision to do this... and I suspect those other considerations might have mae your decision a wise one (however crazy it looks at this point where all we've got to review is your statement that you've had the same order for 12 years while his income has prob ably increased durinmg that time).
Like AnswerGuy said, there's been 12 years for you to get all this stuff straight. Waiting till it's out of control and pricey and then expecting the government to fix it for you is... well, not productive. Challenging jurisdiction at this point is a waste of legal fees. You'd have been better off finding a lawyer in Wyoming, giving them the whole story and getting help resolving and fixing things THERE, from the start.
GOod luck, there's 12 years worth of receipts and contempts and anger to try to sift through, and it's goign to take a lot of patience on your part.
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gigi
Platinum
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5052
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[quote]Just seemed a little unfair that the state will prosecute him to the hilt if the kids and I were receiving state assistance and fail to intercede at all on our behalf as we do not receive assistance as medical costs are exorbitant. [quote]
If you were on assistance, they'd not let the bills accumulate for 12 years before pursuing him! It's going to be tough to pursue that part of this. The jerk needs to pay his support and you probably should have asked for an increase in support, demanded to know his pay increases, at least 6 times in the past 12 years, but as far as paying 12 year old doctor visits, that's going to be really tough to convince a judge to give you.
I'd not be surprised if this is the reason behind the state child support enforcement's policy on that... they simply don't wnat to be sifting through individual bills and figuring out what part and when and interest and ... whether each individual bill was an allowable necessary expense or whether you're trying to charge your ex for an unagreed upon optional medical bill.
Talk to ChatterBox on this forum. His daughter has huge problems and it's very expensive. He finally had to take custody over from his ex and she's supposed to pay part of the bills, and even though he collects them and presents them in a much more timely way than you have done, there have been huge snafus in getting them properly accounted for.
The problem of medical bills is huge and common, and you're not the only one dealing with it. I feel sorry for any parent who has a kid with such serious medical problems and an ex who refuses to contribute. For waiting 12 years, you might have a bigger paperwork nightmare to straighten out than most do, but at least you may be able to find some emotional support and agreement from others that it's not easy. You are not the only one who has huge scary issues over medical bills. Some people are able to get thier situations solved, but others aren't. Good luck and let us know how it goes for you.
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momonthego
New
Reged: 06/26/08
Posts: 5
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Thank you all for your posts. I do appreciate the feedback.
I certainly know that I am not the only one going through this ordeal, and that many have it worse than I do. However, I do not condone men or women for that matter, that have utter disregard for their children's welfare and then wail and bemoan their problems that they have created for themselves.
Yes, NCP is a letter carrier for the United States Post office. The medical part of the CS order is not separate from the rest of the order, or at least that is what counsel has told me in this state and in WY, in shopping for an attorney there. Therefore, if one has reneged on part of the order, (medical) but is garnished (through wage withholding and assignment) for the monthly monetary amount of support to be paid, the courts may find him to be non compliant on the entire order, as I have billed him many times and asked him repeatedly (in writing with return receipt requested) to provide insurance cards and policy provisions, as well as reimbursement. Counsel I have consulted with in WY has also indicated that according to WY statutes that if party carrying the insurance does not provide the provisions to the other parent, that parent can be held in contempt and it could be potentially ordered that NCP pay all legal and court costs, as well as the other costs. I do have well documented receipts of the children's medical cares, dental cares, etc, that I have billed him for many times. I also have copies of all documentation that has transpired between us throughout the years.
Perhaps waiting for 12 years was a mistake. However, I have always provided for my children. NCP's own yearly whining and written empty threats threw me over the edge one year and that is when I started this process. I absolutely will not allow him to take an exemption on the kids as according to the IRS, I would be nuts to do this. I have conferred with them many times, getting more than one opinion on the matter, and they all indicate that they decide who takes the federal exemption, not state courts. My AGI is probably higher than his, I provide all of the medical (which he is supposed to do), and I provide more than half of their yearly support. He has not exercised visitation in over 8 years. I simply will not let the children go with him willy nilly into an environment that I know nothing about as he indicates that he plans to pick them up and leave the state. They are now age 13.....not age 4, going on age 5, which is what age they were when we relocated from WY. He has not bothered to send them a birthday card or even a Christmas gift, but sure does whine about that tax exemption every year since his monetary support arrears cleared, which was only a few years ago. I have also noticed that he has not filed any sort of contempt charges with this issue, although he has threatened to on many occasions. (The only time he did file a motion to show cause, was recently after proceedings began in this state and he was served interstate...and even then, his lawyer, did not bother to serve me. I learned of this motion from talking with child support enforcement.)
Other than that, his correspondence with me is usually (always) at tax time. This year was no different, I simply wrote him a letter indicating that due to the unpaid medical costs, which by the way, exceed any sort of return that he would receive should he file one of the kids, that I will not sign the IRS form 8332, which would give him permission to do so.
The lawyer here in this state advised me that I should also bill him for the premiums I have paid since obtaining my own insurance on the kids. Those premiums run me approximately $1000.00 per month. One can see on the website for postal workers (they all pretty much use National Association of Letter Carriers in Ashburn VA) that family coverage for him (to cover himself and his two children) that cost would be only $170.00 per month.
Child support enforcement in WY indicates that they NEVER intercede on medical bills that are private...and not cares rendered by the state. Again, this seems unfair, as I paid my dues to once have child support enforcement enforce this case, which they do charge if one is not on state assistance. They can intercede however on a contempt charge of failure to provide the insurance cards and provisions. So if that can be done with CS enforcement, it stands to reason, it can be done with a private attorney. Over the years, I have paid exorbitant attorney costs and I guess I am not through yet.
My 2 youngest children are in need of costly orthodontics etc..for medical reasons, not cosmetic. (one child fares a little worse than the other child in respect to dental.)
I do not give up easily, as I solely advocate for all four of my children. I have raised four alone for many years.
Kids are starting to figure this out...they are not stupid. Sad indeed.
Again, thank you for your feedback.
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mrpat
Platinum
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 2639
Loc: Michigan
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"The IRS indicates that he cannot simply attach a copy of the court order, as the court order is conditional, stating that he can take one child as an exemption if his child support is paid in full by Dec 31 of the preceding year."
"Other than that, his correspondence with me is usually (always) at tax time. This year was no different, I simply wrote him a letter indicating that due to the unpaid medical costs, which by the way, exceed any sort of return that he would receive should he file one of the kids, that I will not sign the IRS form 8332, which would give him permission to do so."
If you failed to offer exemption and he was paid up to date on cs just not medical you will be held in contempt.
Hope this isn't the case but if it is tread lightly.
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People don't care how much you know.........until they know how much you care.
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momonthego
New
Reged: 06/26/08
Posts: 5
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Thank you for your post. Not sure this would be the case as he has failed to provide ordered medical support accessability not just for a few years, but for all years of kids' life. Therefore, no reasonable parent is going to sign an IRS form 8332, when they (custodial parent) are footing all costs including medical, dental, and majority of support. When support order was originially established, I am certain that the district court judge felt that the NCP would bear his weight in this respect. There was no way of knowing that I would have had to subsequently go back into court, when monetary monthly support was not paid, and he was held in contempt, and was sternly warned and hit with a suspended jail sentence, and simultaneosly hit with a wage withholding order. At this point and time, they did not just automatically assign wage withholding, as they did once give one a chance to pay without it, which he failed to do.
Yet, he has not ever pulled his weight in respect to the Court order on Medical...it is not even a case of seldom. WY statutes state:
(d)� The court may hold an obligated parent in contempt for refusing to provide the ordered insurance, or for failing or refusing to provide the information required in subsections (b) and (c) of this section.
(e)� In addition to enforcement by contempt, as provided for in subsection (d) of this section, the obligated parent is liable to the other parent, any person or agency for:
(i)� Part or all of the cost of medical care and medical insurance premiums paid or provided to a child for any period in which the obligated parent failed to provide required coverage;
(ii)� Any direct insurance benefits received by the obligated parent and not used for the medical care of the child; and
(iii)� Any reasonable attorney fees and costs incurred in collection that the court may determine appropriate
I believe when it comes right down to it, a judge will signify more imporatance of minor CHILDREN having access to decent medical and dental care, than which PARENT takes a yearly tax exemption. Balance wise, that just doesn't weigh well.
We shall see.
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mrpat
Platinum
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 2639
Loc: Michigan
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I'm not thinking about the court I'm thinking about the IRS. By chance if the wording is if he is current in CS only to get the deduction. He can get this through the court system causing you to both go back x yrs and redo your returns. Not judging just stating a circumstance that could arise. I wish nothing but the best for you and your family. You should be proud of how you have taken care of the children and yourself. Medical and cs arraingments are often 2 seperate situations even in family court. As odd as that sounds.
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People don't care how much you know.........until they know how much you care.
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