mistake#2
Platinum
Reged: 07/19/06
Posts: 3136
Loc: Florida
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Quick background:
1st ex is paying child support for 1 child, age 13, based upon calculations from 11 years ago when he was in military and had it lowered. I have never asked for a modification as I held that in my pocket so he would allow me to move out of state with our son. I have lived in Fl now for over 3 years and I pay 100% transportation. He takes no abatements when he has him in the summer, and that is the only parenting time that he now takes (his suggestion last year to save me $, and so he wouldn't have to review his CS amount). He provides $50 toward 1 sport per year, and specific school clothes & supplies which amount to probably $100 (if you saw my cheap shoes thread, you'll see what I mean)
He now is asking that I look at what I will be seeking in 18 months as that was when we agreed to next determine any changes. Here is the e-mail from him or his wife:
***This is going to sound like a really weird question this early in advance, but we need to ask it anyway. What are you thinking for the next review?
The reason I ask is that we really need some home improvements but in order to make a commitment like that we need to know what to expect our total bills are or will be. As you know we are on a very tight budget, so we always need to make sure of possible changes before hand.
What we were thinking was keeping everything that is now plus doing $50 towards transportation(plus the gas to pick him up in either Detroit or Lansing or Chicago seeing how those are where the cheaper tickets are). Because he will be attending high school at this point, giving $80 towards his class ring(that is how much we paid on M's), plus $50 towards driver's training(which we are making everyone here pay for their own or wait until graduation). We are also willing to send some toiletry items for the year with him when he returns for the summer-like toothbrushes, toothpaste, deodorant, and vitamins. That would be 12 toothbrushes, 12 tubes of toothpaste, 12 containers of deodorant, and 12 months worth of multi-vitamins. Does this work for you?***
I answered back that it's too early for me to know what costs are going to be and that as N gets older it does cost more than the $12 per month extra just to feed him...so no, this isn't going to work for me. Along with information on what it costs to insure a teenage driver, although I don't expect them to cover those costs it is relevant to my own budget.
I don't think I want to roll the dice by doing a review through the state, as he has since adopted his 5 step-kids and I really have no idea how much money he makes but assume it's only around $15 per hour. I've been told by my own attorney that they probably wouldn't raise his support just because of his obligations and also included right now in his support is daycare that I obviously don't need anymore but without that his support would be less than $45 per week.
Help...I need to start getting an idea on what I'm willing to accept. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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**2 1/2 weeks to go...should start counting down the days**
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mrpat
Platinum
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 2618
Loc: Michigan
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You moved out of state and so the costs of sports should be yours alone. Sorry but if he is unable to attend the events he shouldn't be paying(my oppinion only). If he has adopted 5 children you are prob right there will more than likely be no increase. See the thing is when you move out of state you are going to cover most costs of the child. The courts in Michigan are leaning in this direction as well. At 15.00 an hour and 7 people in the household he is responsible for I don't see any increase being ordered by a court. I'm sorry but this might be best handeled bettween your 2 families rather than the Michigan Court System. While I understand it is expensive having kids and only gets more as they age, I don't see the courts having any leway in this situation. At that wage his family must be in dire circumstances already.
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People don't care how much you know.........until they know how much you care.
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mistake#2
Platinum
Reged: 07/19/06
Posts: 3136
Loc: Florida
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His wife works too...but yes I understand that they are basically poor and the MI thing completely. The sports thing was what he offered this past year and I readily accepted as he had never offered ANYTHING before.
I know that going through the court isn't going to serve me well, thus my motivation to come up with something REASONABLE...his motivation is that my 2nd ex told him 3 years ago what HE was paying and that I planned on raking him over the coals, which wasn't true but helped me quite a bit in him being more agreeable.
So my dilemma is to take the first offer, or try for something that is more agreeable with the chance that it becomes a court issue that I probably won't win...but $12 per month is NOT reasonable.
He just came back replying that he will offer a $25 dollar increase monthly along with the additional stuff already mentioned.
Not sure what to do...
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**2 1/2 weeks to go...should start counting down the days**
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mrpat
Platinum
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 2618
Loc: Michigan
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I would think for starters they might be able to pick up more of the travel costs. I don't see the point of the toiletries(sp?) at all. He does need to understand that even tho he allowed an out of state move that he is still responsible for seeing his son. Don't know what else to say cause I don't know what he pays per month in cs.
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People don't care how much you know.........until they know how much you care.
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gigi
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Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 4842
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Take your numbers and his and plug them all into the formulas for your state to see what comes of it. Add in the trasnportation costs and entire extracurricular costs and insurance and everything else the state allows you to add in. Don't mess with trying to add in toothpaste. Calculate the abatement for the summers. Add in the other kids as Others that he has to support if there's a place for it in the formula, but realize that he knew at the time he adopted all those kids that he already had an obligation to his older child.
Figure out what the numbers would be if you really went through the state. Don't take your lawyer's word for it, you do the calculations. Attribute a reasonable income to him if you don't already have his true income (tell him that you need his true income numbers as he is supposed to share this with you so that you can have an idea of what you're wroking with). Attribute a reasonable income for yourself and put your own kids into the formula if the receiving parent is supposed to be added into the formula also.
Then go with that amount as a starting point. Take things into consideration like whether or not you moved and should pay the extracurriculars that the father can't attend because you moved away & other such stuff.
Don't mess with ridiculous clauses like that he has to provide toothpaste and shoes because you KNOW waht's going to happen with that stuff! He'll get baking soda and call it toothpaste, flip flops & call them shoes. Get rid of that stuff so that the two of you won't have that junk to fuss over, you won't have to worry abou tit, he won't have to worry about it. If he wants to GIVE the child toys and clothing, that's one thign, but buying what HE wants to get for the kid & calling it child support is ... well, just stupid. He can have a summer vacation with no need for shopping at all if he chooses!!! He can THINK of his total support amount as going towards shoes or toothpaste or whatever, but you'll just have a lump sum to use for your general household expenses including the child, and will no longer have to police him and his shopping habits.
I think you'll both be a lot happier if you stop with the thing where support is being handed out in 20s here, 30s there, and a pair of shoes elsewhere.... from long distance, no less. If you show him the FULL amount of the price of the transportation, and teh FULL amount of the extracurriculars, and the FULL numbers for the clothing & supplies for the school year... then maybe when you offer to take a small percentage of that amount as a lump sum monthly rather than in dribs and drabs that you have to chase after him over... maybe he'll realize that you're doing him a favor by taking it like this rather than making him pay a REAL portion of the TRUE costs of raising the kid!
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mrpat
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Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 2618
Loc: Michigan
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When calculating the amount try to take other things into consideration. If you didn't move from MI to Fla would he be more involved and spend more time with his son or would this still be the norm. I can't speak to what kind of man your ex was or is. Just things to consider that's all. Gigi is right in the fact that before he adopted the other children he already had a child he is fully responsible for. I do like the idea of monthly cs rather than the added expenses such as shoes and sports and so on. A set amount if agreed upon seems more amicable. Truthfully I can’t understand a parent that allows out of state moves, so I have no idea what kind of man your ex is, not a good or bad thing I just can’t relate. When dealing with a state like MI and our economic problems you’ll find some judges are leaning toward keeping families in our state above water even if it means less cs to out of state children.
By the way the state calculators are only for starting cs. After 3 yrs they don't come into play the same way. Circumstances have changed and the court will notice this. So yes your lawyer is correct on this and if a depressed state can keep his in state family afloat without using state aid for help they would rather have you recieve aid from Fla if your in need. It sucks but that is what happens when so many in this state are already on aid or other assistance.
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People don't care how much you know.........until they know how much you care.
Edited by mrpat (07/01/08 08:44 PM)
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mistake#2
Platinum
Reged: 07/19/06
Posts: 3136
Loc: Florida
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I too thought about taking out the itemized list that he keeps offering. This was the response I got to telling him that $12 a month wasn't going to be reasonable:
**We understand that it's hard to figure out total costs, and like I said, we are just trying to figure out what our bills will be so we can figure out if we can get our house fixed or not. We don't want to get it fixed and then find out we can't afford the payments for it in the future.
Is there any way you can give us a ballpark figure of what you would be expecting, so we can figure out if we can do the repairs or not?
We were figuring the toiletry items and vitamins to be an estimated cost of $120 and then the $80 for the ring(and then $80 the following year for whatever costs arise) and then $50 for drivers training(and then $50 the following year for whatever costs arise) and the $50 towards the ticket (not including our gas to get to Chicago or Detroit) was a total of around $300 a year which equaled to approximately $25 a month more then what you currently are getting.
How about what we have offered and an additional $25 a month raise? That would equal an additional $300 so all in all it would be a total of $600 more then current a year.**
My response back was that it seemed fairly reasonable and that I would put some thought into it...but also that rather than earmarking monies for specific things that we should agree on the set amount (here they are offering $50 per month) to be paid on a specific day per month.
I agree that it isn't going to work for them to send me specific things, but I understand their motivation as then they are able to look for bargains or accept charity on it. Also they can then tell our son that they paid for his drivers ed, or a certain portion for his class ring...not that they shouldn't get credit for helping with certain items but most certainly they need to keep in mind the costs of actually feeding, clothing and raising this child should not be mine alone.
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mistake#2
Platinum
Reged: 07/19/06
Posts: 3136
Loc: Florida
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Just got their (I should say step-mom's) reply:
The reason I tried to "earmark" it is because it is easier to send a certain amount of money occasionally then more a month. Also in J's eyes it makes it more understandable to him. You have to understand that he gets a little unsettled each time a review comes up simply for the fact that he sees N only 8 weeks or so out of 52 weeks, and is sure that the 8 weeks will start to dwindle as N gets older. Their relationship is barely there. Distance makes it hard to have a relationship. I don't say that as a put down or anything defensive, just trying to get you to understand his state of thinking and state of mind. In his eyes, he feels he tries to help out when he can by using his gas to go to the airport in Chicago and calling around trying to get cheaper tickets, and such. (**note, that this has only happened one time which is this year) He panics when the word "raise" comes around. After discussing it with him, I think we have maybe come to a reasonable agreement that is easier to obtain. Would you be willing to keep things like they are at the moment, but then get the lump sum of $600 at tax time each year? That way J isn't worrying every month about additional monthly bills, and yet you are getting what you need for N growing needs. So the agreement would be in affect from the expiration date of this one until 2 years and would state everything it currently says except with the addition of $600 at tax time. That way nothing additional is being purchased and you have the money to spend as you feel fit towards his growing needs, and it's not so difficult to obtain for J. Basically a win win for both of you. Does this sound ok to you?***
I'm not sure how to reply.
I didn't want to do this now...our active agreement is good 'til January 2010, so we are talking about agreeing to something almost 2 years ahead of the renewal and with rising costs. This is advantageous for them, to "lock in" so to say the child support until our son is 17 but I don't see how it benefits me (as it may even be to a disadvantage) to agree to this future change NOW.
Edited by mistake#2 (07/01/08 10:45 PM)
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mrpat
Platinum
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 2618
Loc: Michigan
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I'd say you should put it on the back burner. It takes time to figure out what more he needs to contribute. Tell them Rome was not built in a day or something to that effect. Less than 2 dollars a day..............Damn. Don't seem like much at that point. He needs to disclose his current income. She needs to understand children do mean sacrifice. Sacrifice by both families.
A hard spot for both families to be going thru. Only you know what is right for you.
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People don't care how much you know.........until they know how much you care.
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gigi
Platinum
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 4842
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I think it's crazy that she (or anybody) would think that $50 a month is a reasonable SHARE of what it takes to feed & clothe and equip a teen. It's not like you're asking them to pay the transportation costs. And 8 weeks out of 52 is not a lot of time, but he turned down other time in the effort to help you save money on transportation. It seems that when he took on the burden of this new family (and adopting kids he can't afford) he went beyond what he can handle, but that shouldn't be your kids' problem.
When you moved there, it was with his blessing. Don't let him turn around NOW and make you feel guilty for keeping his kid from him. The fact that you have more of the kids' time means that you have more of the expenses.
BUT if you are OK with the stupid $50 a month, I see no problem with accepting it in a $600 per year increment. Having him "deposit" it all, so to speak, at the beginning of the year for you to use as you see fit that year.
I still think you should use the guideline scoresheet for your state to find out what the ballpark SHOULD be for his current income, your current income, etc. And I can't imagine the judges deciding to let him allow his natural kid to go hungry just because he allowed the kid to move to Florida and adopted 5 new ones. If they want to keep jurisdiction over your son, then they care enough to make sure your son is being taken care of, and if they would not do this, I'd be VERY surprised!
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